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Alpha Centauri Profile
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Runboard user emeritus

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posticon An atheist's "best" friend...


The classic "rock argument" which still remains to be answered:

In "all powerfulness and omnipotence", can God create a rock so big and heavy for him/her/it to lift?

Let the debate begin!...

emoticon


Last edited by:
Alpha Centauri, 6/Jun/04, 0:22


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25/May/04, 22:45 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


I believe in science. I dont waste time with all that religion stuff.

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29/May/04, 0:02 Link to this post PM  Blog
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


All religions and indepth beliefs are purely corrupt.
30/May/04, 15:24 Link to this post PM 
 
Riane Profile
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


I've been mulling over this question for a few days, and I'm going to give the best answer I can. Please note that I'm coming from a Christian perspective.

First off, I want to clarify the terms that are being used in the question. 'Omnipotence' is general defined as being 'all powerful'. In my understanding of the Biblical word, however, this doesn't mean that there aren't things that God can't do. God can't lie. God can't contradict his own nature. The reason God can't lie is because it contradicts his nature. God cannot sin. He cannot learn something new. These 'can'ts' relate to his character. I suppose in a sense you could say that God can only do things that are possible, but what is possible for God is entirely different to what is possible for man. God is all powerful because he can do things WE can't do, but the fact that he can't do things that HE can't do doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't all powerful - it means that he has no contradictions within himself.

Following on from that, when I look at the question as a whole, it seems a bit of a non sequitur. What I mean by that is that it is equivalent in my eyes to asking 'If God beat himself up, who would win?' This is in essence a question that supposes that there are two parts of God which are in opposition to each other, which is not true. Thus for me the question becomes moot. This is, of course, my understanding, from a Christian bias. I know there are people who won't agree with my 'logic', as they're not coming from my point of view, and that's fine. I don't want to force anyone else to think the same way as I do - this is in essence an exercise for me to test how I'm thinking.

This leads to another quick point I want to make - that because I come from a bias, that does not automatically mean that my thinking is flawed, nor does it mean that it's perfect either. And that stands for everyone, whether they believe in science or a particular religion, or both. Part of clear thinking is to recognise that its impossible to look at something without some kind of bias. A Christian viewpoint is a bias. An atheistic viewpoint is a bias. An agnostic view point is a bias.

I hope that came across clearly enough - if anyone else wants to challenge the points I've made, please do so. I don't mind honest intellectual debate - in fact, I think it's healthy. And Alpha, thanks for posting the question in the first place. emoticon


Last edited by:
Riane, 31/May/04, 6:01


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31/May/04, 6:00 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Riane, I think that from a biased Christian point of view, you have done just great! emoticon

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31/May/04, 11:14 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Very good job, Rianne...

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31/May/04, 13:31 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Thanks for the vote of confidence guys!! emoticon

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31/May/04, 14:42 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


I'm late, but well done, Riane. emoticon

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


very excellent Riane of your personal views of how you feal and thank you for sharing this with us ..that means alot

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31/May/04, 18:51 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



In "all powerfulness and omnipotence", can God create a rock so big and heavy for him/her/it to lift?



My first Question would be Why?.....would he want to in the first place. emoticon

But upon further consideration,I think that "All Powerfulness and omipotence",
Would describe an Entity Without Limits.......

So the Answer Is NO......

Unless of course He/She (The Entity)......made that choice specifically,in which case ....

That would determine a concious choice to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock.......

So the answer is still NO.......

 emoticon

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Reality is the beginning not the end,
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Good point, Whitemajikman! Why would he want to, indeed!

 emoticon

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6/Jun/04, 0:04 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



C Berenice wrote:
Good point, Whitemajikman! Why would he want to, indeed!

Hey guys, this is twisting the argument. Kinda playing hide and seek games...

Supposedly he WANTED to do that... Then what? This is what I'm asking...

emoticon

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6/Jun/04, 0:19 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Riane, all I can say is, well . . .

You're a very, very intelligent person. Biased, yet conscious of this. You don't see that very often emoticon

Now about this rock . . .

It's seems quite a paradox, does it not? The all-powerful being has to show a weakness in either one or the other. If he is strong enough to lift the rock, then he has shown his inability to create. If the rock IS too big, then he is revealed as being in over his head. Hmmmm . . . sounds an awful lot like humanity, eh? emoticon

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There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Ahlyssah, welcome aboard! Enjoy your stay here... emoticon

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22/Jul/04, 18:54 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



museum wrote:

All religions and indepth beliefs are purely corrupt.




religions and beliefs live today, because of our faith in them
its kind of our way of expressing things or explaining things, well thats the way i see it
22/Jul/04, 20:33 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



kungfudesi429 wrote:
...because of our faith in them its kind of our way of expressing things or explaining things

Expressing things... maybe. Explaining things ...no way!

emoticon

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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



Alpha Centauri wrote:

Expressing things... maybe. Explaining things ...no way!

emoticon



well some religions are records of history (so its kinda like explaining things) and anyway it was a long time ago, they came up with explanations that they couldnt explain

kinda like greek mythology
22/Jul/04, 21:43 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


I agree with you Kungfu. That's been a major function of religion throughout history. A rain god, for instance "explains" why it rains. Apollo "explains" the movement of the sun in the sky. The explanations may not have been correct, but that was nonetheless their function.

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Oh, well... I could possibly agree on "explanation" (in quotes), but EXPLANATION (w/out being quoted) is a totally different thing, isn't it? Anyway, I got your point...

emoticon


Last edited by:
Alpha Centauri, 22/Jul/04, 22:23


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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Don't worry Alpha, no one is going to start insisting that Apollo drags the sun across the sky now. emoticon emoticon

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
22/Jul/04, 22:34 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


No, I guess not... But I know that there are by far many people out there that would like to see modern biology books being thrown to the fire just because they EXPLAIN things differently than their ready made religious "explanations"... Don't you think?


Last edited by:
Alpha Centauri, 22/Jul/04, 22:51


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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Absolutely. And I often bring up the "explanations" offered by Native American gods, Greek gods, and the early Catholic "the earth is flat and we'll excommunicate you if you disagree" church to such folk.

---
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
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Man created God. All I have to say.

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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


heh,
im hindu, and i have faith in my religion even though humans made most of it up
23/Jul/04, 0:34 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
Alpha Centauri Profile
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



Sonire wrote:
Man created God. All I have to say.

That's also been said by a great philosopher, Jean Jacques Rousseau, eventhough in his own wording that expressed his deep religious beliefs: Even if there was no God, man would just NEED to create one!... (I believe that Voltaire has also said the same thing. Goes to show that great minds think alike)...

Welcome aboard, Sonire. So "cute" an avatar you've got there, mate!...

emoticon emoticon


Last edited by:
Alpha Centauri, 29/Jul/04, 10:33


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I'll have to read about Jean Jacques Rousseau. Thanks for welcoming me, I think I'm gonna like it here. You mentioned my "cute" avatar. You're not by chance a Resident Evil fan are you?

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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Thanks, Alpha!

I think Sonire's right. There is quite likely some kind of life-giving force that exists within all things. Humans give this force shape and charateristic based on what they themselves believe. So, in this sense, there IS a God . . . and a Goddess, Shiva, White Monkey, and what have you. They all exist because we want them to, nay, NEED them to. Some people may think it blasphemous to picture Jesus Christ playing poker with Cernunos and Anubis, but as long as somebody believes in these beings, they will always exist.

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There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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I think I was about 12 when I first started to believe this. It's so hard growing up in a family full of Christians when you're infact atheist. I'd like for them to know I'm an atheist, but they would never understand. But I guess that's how religion was born. People didn't understand something, so they looked for the quickest solution.

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i dont know if im an atheist or a hindu . . .

we hindus have good principles and such, its just that i cant believe everything . . .
hinduism gets confusing after a while

some friends of mine want me to convert to Christianity, but i cant believe their religion either
it bugs me when they pester me so much on how great God is and everything, and im like, prove it . . . where is this god of yours (but then i could say the saame thing to myself)

yes humans just made it all up . . .



but then i think, what made this universe and other universes, this world, and everything
what made life?

can science explain what made the Big Bang, that made the universe?
can anyone be so sure what made all this . . . . there has to be some greater power out there, do you guys get what i mean?

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I see what you mean, but a greater power still can't be explained. I want an answer, and leaving it as "we all come from a greater power" just leaves me more questions.

Have you ever noticed how our solar system so closely resembles an atom? 9 planets orbit the sun, a central source of energy. Just like protons and nuetrons orbit the nucleus of an atom?

I'd sooner believe that we are just an atom that makes up a larger organism than believe we were created by a god.

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~Sonire~

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