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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Curses! I should have known! It's so true, too . . .

Unfortunately, some of us have too MUCH emoticon

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Sorry David and Alyssah, but I think I'm going to have to go with CB's answer on this one. emoticon

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



addi30 wrote:Sorry David and Alyssah, but I think I'm going to have to go with CB's answer on this one.

Smart woman, Addi!! Now...do you want to run away to the mountains with me voluntarily before God AC comes back and kick us both out?

 emoticon emoticon

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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Does all of this cumilate into one of two things?

Either you believe or you do not.

Just about any subject or comment can be interpeted differently by many minds.

Are these interpertations not just that persons opinion?

Opinions are neither right or wrong, just what anyone believes to be correct.


Now, CB and Addi should run like hell. Better yet call back the messenger launch, get on board and go to Mercury
 emoticon

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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



Alpha Centauri wrote:
Heheh... Still there IS an answer to the problem that fulfils BOTH parameters in a very simple and straightforwarded way... I think it's time now to give you a hint or two... There IS an EXISTING omnipotent "god" that has created such "rocks" (which also EXIST). The beauty in all this is that the "rocks" not only do NOT diminish or lessen "god's" omnipotence but they present and prove "god's" full glory, instead...

Hmmm... What if "Nature/Cosmos/Universe" is the "god" and the black holes are the proverbial "rocks"??? Does it ring a bell now, perhaps? Waiting for your input on this...

emoticon emoticon


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"The universe has created black holes that are too big and heavy for the universe to lift."

No, I don't think that statement is true. Black holes move through space; they are not fixed. ("Fixed" is a meaningless concept in a relativistic universe, anyway.) The black holes believed to be at the centres of certain galaxies move with those galaxies, for example. They do this because the gravity of the galaxies drag them along with it. Black holes are affected by gravity, the same as everything else with mass. Furthermore, it is currently believed that black holes possess angular momentum: they spin. If this theory is true, it requires black holes to obey the law of conservation of angular momentum (the same as everything else in the universe). This means the universe can affect the movement (spin) of the black hole by adding mass to it to change its total angular momentum. There are probably other ways for the universe to move black holes, too, but none spring to mind at the moment.




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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Yes! They do move... Yes! They do spin... But this I do not consider to be the real meaning of "lift"... Let's consider "lift" in the aspect of the "ODDITY" black holes present and/or represent... Let's say that the "rock" cannot be "lifted" because when dealing with back holes, the laws of "god/nature" as we know it, simply collapse... Hence the "oddity"... and the true meaning of "lift"...

emoticon

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'the laws of "god/nature" as we know it, simply collapse'

Because our understanding of the laws of nature is incomplete. (Every scientist will agree with this.)

To use your metaphor, our minds are unable to "lift" black holes; the universe is perfectly able to "lift" them, we just don't understand how.

One of the goals of the various Unified Theories under discussion by modern physicists is to explain black holes in a framework that is consistent with the rest of the observed universe. Just because we haven't worked it out yet doesn't imply that it doesn't exist.




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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



David Meadows wrote:
'the laws of "god/nature" as we know it, simply collapse'
Because our understanding of the laws of nature is incomplete. (Every scientist will agree with this.)
To use your metaphor, our minds are unable to "lift" black holes; the universe is perfectly able to "lift" them, we just don't understand how.

I couldn't agree more with you on ALL of the above. Still the cosmology's key-words "as we know it" is by FAR BETTER than theology's "as we believe it" and that's EXACTLY my point:

As far as WE KNOW, there EXISTS a rock that cannot be lifted, yet it proves the EXISTING nature/god's omnipotence... Let theology have a hard time trying to solve the same problem in a SUPPOSEDLY manner...

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Alpha Centauri wrote:

No, I guess not... But I know that there are by far many people out there that would like to see modern biology books being thrown to the fire just because they EXPLAIN things differently than their ready made religious "explanations"... Don't you think?



There are many who would want the Scriptures burned as well, because it does not go along with their theories and scientific studies.

But I think they have agreed to keep the Scriptures, because those unread "church folk" don't know what is in them anyway. We can just change what we don't like.
Right now, the new International king James Version has the book of shadows seal(of the show "Charmed") on the front of it, and throughout its pages. The book of shadows seal is 666 entertwined and seal resembles fish, but it isn't fish.


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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



addi30 wrote:

Absolutely. And I often bring up the "explanations" offered by Native American gods, Greek gods, and the early Catholic "the earth is flat and we'll excommunicate you if you disagree" church to such folk.



Yea, the Catholic church(Circe or Kirke) is the one that seduces men into her temple and then turns them into unclean beings through her babylonian lies, but she is not of the Father, nor His Son.

She would do anything--including marrying the evil one to attain power and control.

If you receive the Redeemer you are free indeed, but if you receive a lie you are enslaved, ensnared, and brought back under those things that you sought to free yourself from.
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



kungfudesi429 wrote:


Sonire wrote:

I'd sooner believe that we are just an atom that makes up a larger organism than believe we were created by a god.



atoms . . . nice
we make up god, lol!

a lot of things cant be explained , like time for instance, its quite confusing, once u get into light years and such




Can't one make up the fact that there is no god? Yes, he can. Did we really go to the moon?

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ofthe Father8 wrote:

Yea, the Catholic church(Circe or Kirke) is the one that seduces men into her temple and then turns them into unclean beings through her babylonian lies, but she is not of the Father, nor His Son.




The Catholic faith is every bit as valid as yours, and there will be no naming of other groups as "unclean" on this board. Period.

OftheFather, both you and your viewpoints on your faith are welcome. However, putting down other faiths (or lack of faith) in a blanket fashion is not welcome from you or anyone else. You are welcome to state what you believe and why, and are you are welcome to engage in civil debate about those beliefs. You are not, however, welcome to say or indicate that other faiths are the products of Satan. It is insulting and, in the eyes of most people, untrue - no matter how much you believe it.

This is a discussion board, not a religious pulpit. Please use it as such.


---
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
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addi30 wrote:

Under the Christian belief system, God could certainly create a rock too heavy for he, himself, to lift - because the Christian theory of God is based on the Trinity. So the "father" could create a rock that the "son" would be unable to lift. And I have no idea what the holy ghost would or would not be able to lift.

Happy now? emoticon



Those that believe in the Trinity have not read their Scriptures fully.

Hebrews 1:8-9

but unto the Son he said your throne, O God is forever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptrue of your kingdom(this is usually where the trinitarians stop-but this verse hasn't stopped, read on)You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore GOD, EVEN YOUR GOD, has annointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

I Corinthians 15:28

and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, THAT GOD may be all in all.

If the Father wanted to make a rock that way he would. It would be up to Him whether he would limit Himself by His own rules. He has done this when He decided to let men have free will. He could make us, but he left the choice of spiritual life or death up to us.
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Alpha Centauri wrote:

Oooops! There goes the "not completely in unison" factor that you mentioned above... This time Jesus is human according to your sayings, completely distinguished from the father (in god-like terms). While the "human" thingie is what -I- also think on the subject (set aside the incarnation stuff), could someone please tell me if the Trinity is to be considered as an ENTITY or not? Cause this rather turns out to be a cat and mouse game (or a vicious circle, if you prefer)...

BTW: I completely fail to see how the rock argument could possibly ..."strengthen that aspect of Christian belief", but that's another story...

emoticon


Alpha if you believed that men are spirit and body like most "christians" do, would you speak to the spirit in the man, or would you speak to the man--knowing that the man and the spirit are one until the body dies. I ususally don't walk up to my mother and go--hello my mother's spirit! I usually say hello mother. I still know she has a spirit, and if her body dies, then her spirit is the only thing left, and goes back to the Father who gave it to wait for judgment.

Now the Father is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. When you speak to the Father you don't say My Father's Spirit--How are you today? No, You say Father I love you. You don't speak to His Spirit. You speak to Him-a Spiritual Body and a Spirit together. The Father's Spirit can do things that our spirit can't. A baby can't do the same things that their parents can--it takes time, maturity and patience and learning. The Father did not limit the amount of His Spirit that He put in the Redeemer. He did limit according to our abilities, our spiritual abilities. Now once the Father's Spirit comes into us, then we have our spirit, and then a portion of the Father's Spirit when become one and create a babe in the Spirit, which has to grow, mature and learn spiritually.
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Alpha Centauri wrote:

I'm not questioning the validity of the Trinity theory, actually. Being an atheist myself, I have a pretty clear personal view about the "validity" of ANY religious theory. However, I'd very much like to know about others' conception of the Trinity, since it appears to be rather obscured an issue, that can be used in a very flexible (not to mention manipulative) way, in order to supposedly give "answers" to questions such as the initial rock argument...




Is is obscure because they really don't understand it themselves. We just swallowed hook, line and sinker the traditions of man (nicene council) and said it must be true because so many believe it. The Scriptures say prove all things.

John 17:4-26

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you, Father, keep through your own name those wh you have given me that they may be ONE, AS WE ARE.

That THEY ALL may be ONE AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN ME, AND I IN YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may beleive that you have sent me.

And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE.

I IN THEM, AND YOU IN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that you have sent me and has loved them as you have loved me.


Now, if we are one in the Father and His Son, according to trinitarians, we should all be rolling around Father, son , and "Church", in a great big amalgamated ball.

No, it is of one mind. We agree as one spiritually and mentally.

1)There is the Father-He is the Father.
There is the Father's Son-the Redeemer, Advocate and mediator between the Father and man
The Father's Spirit is a part of Him-It should not be seen as a separate entity from Him.

There Is one Creator Father and His Son is second to Him in all the world-but He is not the Father and the Father is not Him.



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kungfudesi429 wrote:

i dont know if im an atheist or a hindu . . .

we hindus have good principles and such, its just that i cant believe everything . . .
hinduism gets confusing after a while

some friends of mine want me to convert to Christianity, but i cant believe their religion either
it bugs me when they pester me so much on how great God is and everything, and im like, prove it . . . where is this god of yours (but then i could say the saame thing to myself)

yes humans just made it all up . . .



but then i think, what made this universe and other universes, this world, and everything
what made life?

can science explain what made the Big Bang, that made the universe?
can anyone be so sure what made all this . . . . there has to be some greater power out there, do you guys get what i mean?




O.K., see what I mean? There is something in us that just doesn't buy all the stuff that's out there, even "Christianity". I really can't blame people for not believing all the charletons out there, not to mention the contamination that was added to the Scripture. It is hard, but the Father gives warnings of these things.

They worshipped the sun in the East.

They will no longer call me Baalim(many Baals--sun gods).

When the Father and the Son return, they will bring in a pure language.

They wept and the door of the Father's house for the false god Tammuz.

They worshipped the created things instead of the Creator.

They worshipped all manner of beasts, and creeping things.

They worshipped the host of heaven--(stars, moon, sun, constellations).

They made cakes to the queen of heaven(Astaroth, venus, Aphrodite, Mother Mary, Ceres, etcl)

They poured out drink offerings to the queen of Heaven.

They took an axe and cut a tree down out of the forest and decorated it with silver and gold.

They added and took away from the word.

I come in my Father's name and you reject me, but one will come in HIS OWN name, and him you will receive.

Many will come in my name, saying I am the "Christ".

Many "Christs" shall come and deceive many.

Let no MAN deceive you.

The falling away shall come first(when those are were believers turn away unto doctrines of devils) then the son of perdition will be revealed.

Let no MAN take your crown.

The lying pens of the scribes have made my law void.

They devoured my flock-they hunted men's souls.

They say isn't the Father among us? But I have not sent them.

In that day many will say--haven't we prophecied in your name? Haven't we cast demons out in your name?
And the Father will say--depart from me--I never knew you.
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Concepts like big, heavy, black, white,etc... are only created by God for us. They are only in our minds. If you read the book of Einstein'S about timelessness, you can understand better maybe. But for God there is no can't. Think broader. These conceps belong to us for this world also after death, everything changes for us. If God does not exist, then what is the question of Big Bang? Who did it? who gave the order to become into being from nonbeing point? There are hundreds of questions that atheism can no longer reply, this is not deniable any more. Another thing is the origin of life. If you are following the scientific media, answers can not be given to this huge dark hole of evolutionary theory. And a lot more... what do you think?
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I think that the minds of human beings are too puny to be able to comprehend anything on the scale of which the universe adheres to. There may be a god (or several), there may not be. We can't know this in our present state, no matter how many "miracles" or "revelations" we THINK we witness.

As for the Big Bang theory . . . it's just that, a theory. I myself lean toward this one as the more likely of the explanations people have offerred to explain life and matter, but at the same time I keep my mind open to other possibilities that human beings may never consider. We can't know everything, and there's nobody who's going to tell us, either.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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..."to everything there is a season... a time ...and a reason"... We'll know when the time is right. The only thing is that this particular knowledge is not of a... er.. collective nature; like say, a classroom thing. Its something personal, something that each one of us learns -or not- alone, when the time for him/her is right.

"Season" and "time" btw not necesarily meassured by our standards...

I love my wisdom flashes! emoticon

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Wisdom? What's that? (n to the X divided by the square root of Y . . . )

There is no such word in the manual of "civilized" thought.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Civilized? What is civilized? No such thing.

Oh, here is a what if?....makes sense to me...but is not doctrine. What if hell is actually a black hole? Perfect kind of prison...smooshed into a point and can't get out? heheheh

Anyway....about the Trinity :) AC I know you wanted other people's spins on it :) I have a fairly unique one (on this board anyway)

I don't believe in the Trinity in the "accepted" sense. I am staunchly Christian, however.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are in fact three distinct beings. Not Three-in-One. (Its too messy)
The Father is a God, the Son is a god and the Holy Ghost is a god. However, The Father is THE God. He is greater than the Son.
The Father and the Son have physical bodies of flesh and bone with spirits inside these bodies. The Holy Ghost has no body but a spirit. Which is why it can touch our spirit.

On a side note. We are all spiritual ofspring of God the Father. Our purpose is not (as has been discussed here) merely to worship Him. Our purpose is to become like Him. To learn. To Grow. To return to His presence better than when we left.

As for the silly rock question :) It was cute. Interesting Paradox in attempt to ruin a Christian's belief system. But alas it is not good enough.
God created the rules and must abide by them as well. I fully believe that He obeys the Laws of Thermodynamics and Physics when He creates a world (and He has made many) :)

The problem with anti-God arguments...is that they are based upon what WE know (or think we know) (because not everything that is knowledge is anything more than a belief that has been locally tested to be true under certain cercumstances)

Athiestic projections of God are humanlike. They cannot imagine a being without flaw because they see flaw in all the intelligent life that they know. I understand this :) It IS hard to imagine that there is a perfect someone, who does not use his great power to his own benefit (as I probably would if I had any power whatsoever, and everyone else here would too).
But I know he exists. I'll leave it at that since I'm not trying to convince anyone, just expressing my belief :)

Though I wish athiests would stop (I don't mean all athiests btw) attacking Christians for believing, saying that "knowledge" beats belief. Our knowledge is just as fragile as belief. For all we know.....the law's of physics might turn out to be unique for our universe, just as quantam mechanics is unique for ultra small atomic particles and such.
Infinity is impossible for the human mind to conceptualize, because we live with limits all around us. But that does not make infiniy impossible. "Hard to conceptualize" and "non-existant" are different matters entirely.

So. Here I shall quote "an Article of Faith" from my church:
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
The same goes for not worshiping :)

---
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Loud G wrote:

Athiestic projections of God are humanlike. They cannot imagine a being without flaw because they see flaw in all the intelligent life that they know. I understand this :) It IS hard to imagine that there is a perfect someone, who does not use his great power to his own benefit (as I probably would if I had any power whatsoever, and everyone else here would too).
But I know he exists. I'll leave it at that since I'm not trying to convince anyone, just expressing my belief :)



Are not most Christian projections of God humanlike as well? After all, just about every church I've been to (barring that Unitarian one) claims that human beings were "made in His image". That's saying a lot about what God must look like. And yes, God does have His flaws; he created us, did he not? And then expected us to adhere to His will. emoticon That's one serious overestimation of mankind if you ask me.

Also, "know" and "believe" are slightly different matters. No offense, hun, just trying to be difficult. emoticon


Though I wish athiests would stop (I don't mean all athiests btw) attacking Christians for believing, saying that "knowledge" beats belief. Our knowledge is just as fragile as belief. For all we know.....the law's of physics might turn out to be unique for our universe, just as quantam mechanics is unique for ultra small atomic particles and such.



Now, now, it's not any worse than the Catholic/Protestant wars way back when. In fact it's a heck of a lot better; I haven't seen the local clergy being burned at the stake recently. But you're right, because when it comes to matters of this sort, we honestly don't have any "knowledge" at all. Sure, the whole "Seven-Day Creation" thing has been weeded out by the fossil record, but who's to say that some omnipotent being wasn't up there cooking the primordial soup with his mother's recipe book? I don't suppose we'll find any real "proof" for or against the existence of Whatever Power That Is, at least not proof that can be shared from person to person. One man's nighttime vision is written off as a dream, a child who spots a fairy in the back yard accused of an active imagination by her parents, and so on. Believe what you will, everyone, but don't expect others to join you.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


ok, God is not flawed. He knew we were not going to be perfect before he gave us bodies.
You see, we are His children that lived with him in spirit before he created the world. He didn't not create us to worship Him as such.

He gave us bodies so that we could learn to be more like Him. He gave us free agency so we could CHOOSE whether or not we wanted Him. He didn't expect us just to do it.
I think this is where most athiests have the hardest time. They say "he created man to worship Him" if that were true, if I was only made to fulfill someone elses ego, I would be kinda annoyed too and be persuaded not to believe in Him either.

So no, he didn't overestimate at all. That is why he prepared the Messiah "from the beginning of the world". It wasn't a quick fix for an error that He made. It was something that He had planned for millenia ago, knew it would be necessary and provided the means.

As for why I say "I know" he exists, it is complicated and you aren't likely to understand in your current state of mind. It is more than "I believe" He exists. So much more. I passed that point LONG ago. If you want to know how I know PM I'll explain in detail. If not leave it at that.

(you are right about the past protestants and Catholics(I am niether) they were a great deal more militant about it. But my complaint is that Athiests belittle our intelligence. Not our faith. They say christians are morons for believing (yes they do I've heard it) Instead of, well ok believe what you will, I'll believe what I will (like you just said). Most protestants may say you are wrong, but won't call you an idiot, because they know how firmly beliefs can be held.)


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31/Jan/05, 15:31 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...




 think this is where most athiests have the hardest time. They say "he created man to worship Him"



I've known quite a few atheists in my life, and none of them every said this.



They say christians are morons for believing (yes they do I've heard it)



Just because you've heard someone who is in an atheist say this, that doesn't mean "they" say it. Please do not attribute negative qualities to an entire group in a blanket fashion. The atheists of the boad can speak for themselves.
31/Jan/05, 16:15 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


sorry, I didn't mean to "blanket" "them".

I've just had many discussion with that type of athiest that I described :) and I have seen a couple of posts here along the same lines of "stupid christians and their unprovable beliefs"

Quote:

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think this is where most athiests have the hardest time. They say "he created man to worship Him"

I've known quite a few atheists in my life, and none of them every said this.
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Actually this is one of the main arguments I've heard in my various debates with atheists, I haven't met a single one who has not said that.


I personally think everyone should be allowed to believe or not believe as they see fit, not will I try and force any to see my point of view.

I dislike being insulted as well, so if I came off badly, I apologize :)


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Loud G, 31/Jan/05, 21:02


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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


No need to apologize. We simply try to maintain an open tone on this board, and we don't want anyone to feel "shut down" so to speak. I'm sorry to hear you got an anti-Christian tone while perusing the board - that is not something we encourage either.
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...



Loud G wrote:

He gave us bodies so that we could learn to be more like Him. He gave us free agency so we could CHOOSE whether or not we wanted Him. He didn't expect us just to do it.
I think this is where most athiests have the hardest time. They say "he created man to worship Him" if that were true, if I was only made to fulfill someone elses ego, I would be kinda annoyed too and be persuaded not to believe in Him either



Number one, if atheists claim that the only purpose of Man is to worship God, then many, many, many priests, preachers, and other various clergymen have claimed this even more recurrently. To a great deal of holy men, especially deown hair en tha dape Say-oth, where Christianity has a rather militant tradition (not everywhere in the southern US, of course, but we do have some nasty little pockets), we ARE just here to praise the name of God. We ARE here to do His bidding. You must keep in mind that, while many of your faith are kind, honest, intelligent human beings, there are some people in the world that, well, are just plain moronic jerks.

Number two, if you think about it, we all worship the same god. We simply call Him/Her/It by a different name and have a different perspective on what They are like. Heck, I wouldn't be offended in the least if someone called me Joe while complimenting me on a piece of art I had rendered. Well, actually I kinda would be if they called me Joe. For heaven's sake, I'm a girl! I admit, that would tick me off. But still, it's the same deity. He or She just should have been more specific when He/She made His/Her appearances.

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There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


I believe in faith and religion (I myself am a Christian), and I believe we are here to do God's bidding. But I seriously doubt God's bidding is to worship him. I doubt he created us just to praise him in every way we could think of. I believe that God is so great, we are insignificant to him, but he doesn't ignore us. He is kind and forgiving, so he helps us out in our dearest needs, if he sees that it is worth fixing. Sometimes (most of the time actually) he lets bad things happen so that we can learn from our mistakes, and so we have the experience. It also gives us greater joy when we finally accomplish what we have failed at so many times.
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Re: An atheist's "best" friend...


Sadly, we all have different ideas on what His/Her bidding is, ranging from the mundane to the psychotic. Perhaps THAT'S the rock He can't lift; He got us to believe, but He can't get us to believe the same thing.

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There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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