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Biblical ...ethics.


And god said to man: "Thou shalt not kill"... But, obviously this hadn't been so ...serious a commandment. For in the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love:

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).


Therefore, what god really said to man, must've been: "Thou shalt not kill... Let ME and my followers do it!!!"...

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30/May/04, 17:37 Link to this post PM 
 
addi30 Profile
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


Actually, I was taught that particular commandment more accurately translates as "Thou shalt not murder."

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
30/May/04, 18:37 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


Even so, what's the difference? We're not talking about killings during a war here... We're talking about slaughter mostly... What god himself slaughtering thousands of Egyptian first born (according to the very bible) has to do with ...ethics??? What kind of a god is this???

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30/May/04, 19:09 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


Meaning, the commandment itself, if the "murder" translation is correct, draws a distiction between justified and unjustified killing. Thus rendering the commandment less effective, in my opinion, as anyone can find a way to justify almost anything.

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
30/May/04, 19:26 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


There is no such thing as justified killing, as far as I am concerned, no matter who commands it.
 
But, given that the Bible was actually written long after the events described had taken place and that they had been preserved virtually through "word of mouth" until then, I wonder, if the Bible is a "victim" of misintrepetation!...

Also -concerning Jesus's sayings about all this killing and wars and relatives turned against each other- it doesn't sound to me as a prompting and directive to his followers. It sounds more like parable expressing something that he could see happening way into the future of humanity when Christianity would have to stand against the existing religions.
 I won't even touch the Roman or other persecutions which Christianity had to face until it got established; I will instead draw your attention at the schism that created the Orthodox and Catholic sides!... emoticon

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30/May/04, 21:14 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


I hope to whatever God that still exists in this world that this is all just a bunch of conversionary propaganda written by thirteenth century priests to "persuade" dissenters to throw away their beliefs and become Christian. I mean, that's just plain sick. I can't imagine any "Heavenly Father" treating ANY of his children thusly, even the rebellious ones.


addi30 wrote:

Meaning, the commandment itself, if the "murder" translation is correct, draws a distiction between justified and unjustified killing. Thus rendering the commandment less effective, in my opinion, as anyone can find a way to justify almost anything



Since when is the slaughter of infants and children justified? At what point is it acceptable to slay innocents as examples of power? What kind of a person condones the defilement of women when he specifically says that chastity is a virtue? And who on Earth is so cruel that he must take his frustrations out on the poor horses, who have no choice one way or the other? And people say that Druids were cruel. But this is a heck of a lot more than a few animal sacrifices on Samhain and Yule; this is the needless murder of hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom were related to the conflict only by chance, who are being slaughtered in the name of Glory. I'm sorry, but the next time some jerk starts spouting this garbage about my "barbarian" customs, I will have no choice but to hit them with the pepper spray.

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29/Jul/04, 2:45 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


Thou shall not kill/murder... God's chosen people. Obviously. Nobody else counts because otherwise God would have chosen them too. So Israelites killing anybody else is ok as far as God is concerned. And God killing anybody (including Israelites) is obviously ok because he's God. I don't see what the problem is.

Of course, Christians will tell you that the Jews got it wrong about being the chosen people and God is really for everybody. But then, Christians still go around killing people, and they don't have anything in their scripture which allows it. That Christian hypocracy is the thing I can't reconcile, not the actions of the biblical Jews who were acting with the full knowledge and blessing of their God.



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Re: Biblical ...ethics.



David Meadows wrote:Thou shall not kill/murder... God's chosen people. Obviously. Nobody else counts because otherwise God would have chosen them too. So Israelites killing anybody else is ok as far as God is concerned. And God killing anybody (including Israelites) is obviously ok because he's God.

But why is it ok if God kills? "Just because he is God" doesn't cover me! He contradicts himself and teaches the "Don't do as I do -Do as I say" motto! Wrong thing for a parent to teach his children don't you think?...I mean, how can you teach a child NOT to smoke if you the parent smoke like a chimney???
 emoticon
Wow, David, this is great food for thought and debate...good job!( I got more Qs comming so prepare yourself! emoticon

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29/Jul/04, 13:06 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.



David Meadows wrote:
Of course, Christians will tell you that the Jews got it wrong about being the chosen people and God is really for everybody. But then, Christians still go around killing people, and they don't have anything in their scripture which allows it. That Christian hypocracy is the thing I can't reconcile, not the actions of the biblical Jews who were acting with the full knowledge and blessing of their God.

IS there a separate scripture for "Christians" than that of the Israelites???..
As for the "Christian hypocrisy"...Tell that to Paul the apostole! He done it!....emoticon
 
David, what do you mean when you say: "full knowledge and blessing of their God?" That they would murder and all that with their god's blessings ...I just want tomake sure I understand this!. emoticon

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29/Jul/04, 13:26 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.



C Berenice wrote:
He contradicts himself and teaches the "Don't do as I do -Do as I say" motto! Wrong thing for a parent to teach his children don't you think?...I mean, how can you teach a child NOT to smoke if you the parent smoke like a chimney???


Actually, both my parents smoked like chimneys and I have never touched a cigarette in my life. Being in the same room as both of them was such a revolting experience I had no desire to subject myself to the same discomfort on my own.

So I am living proof that "Don't do as I do - Do as I say" does actually work.

I can accept God saying, "do not kill - or else I shall smite thee". Makes perfect sense to me.



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Re: Biblical ...ethics.



C Berenice wrote:


David Meadows wrote:
Of course, Christians will tell you that the Jews got it wrong about being the chosen people and God is really for everybody. But then, Christians still go around killing people, and they don't have anything in their scripture which allows it. That Christian hypocracy is the thing I can't reconcile, not the actions of the biblical Jews who were acting with the full knowledge and blessing of their God.

IS there a separate scripture for "Christians" than that of the Israelites???..



Yes. That's kind of the whole point of Jesus's teaching. Or, how many Jews do you know that read the Gospels?




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Re: Biblical ...ethics.



C Berenice wrote:
David, what do you mean when you say: "full knowledge and blessing of their God?" That they would murder and all that with their god's blessings ...I just want tomake sure I understand this!. emoticon



Take a look at the examples Alpha gave right at the top of the topic. In most of the cases, it was God directly ordering *his* people to go out and smite their enemies.

And, remember, the people they went out killing were always enemies of the Israelites, never other Israelites -- because God's commandment was "thou shall not kill [my people]".

You need to understand that only the Israelites are God's chosen people. The Bible is very clear on that point. Nobody else is important (to God). But other people are still God's creations (even though they turned their backs on him) so you can't go around killing them with no good cause. Most of the cases Alpha listed were for protection, or to regain land that was rightfully theirs, which many people, even today, would class as a "good cause".



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Re: Biblical ...ethics.



David Meadows wrote:
You need to understand that only the Israelites are God's chosen people. The Bible is very clear on that point. Nobody else is important (to God). But other people are still God's creations (even though they turned their backs on him) so you can't go around killing them with no good cause.

That's true David... But... What we end up with here, is ANOTHER biblical contradiction, given that according to Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." So, which one is true and which one is a lie? And how come the bible is to be considered "holy" if half of its contents directly contradict with the other half? Seems like a manipulative geopolitical manifesto to me, rather than being "holy" etc etc...

See also the God good to all, or just a few? topic in this forum.

And I fail to see ANY difference between all those quoted above (which ARE true) and the Nazi racism as expressed in "Mein Kampf"... So, is there a possibility that the Bible was actually the "Mein Kampf" of its era???... I wonder...





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Alpha Centauri wrote:
What we end up with here, is ANOTHER biblical contradiction, given that according to Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." So, which one is true and which one is a lie?


Can you accept that a parent can love all of this children but still say to one, "You pull your sister's hair again and I'll smack you"?

And then the "good" child might conceivably write a poem about her parent, saying, "Dad is great, he looks after this children!" Which is, of course, true.




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David Meadows wrote:So I am living proof that "Don't do as I do - Do as I say" does actually work.

You along with many other people, David, are only the exeption that justifies the rule. And the rule is: we learn by example! But that is not of the present subject...On the other points I will answer you after I look something up first.
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David Meadows wrote:
Can you accept that a parent can love all of this children but still say to one, "You pull your sister's hair again and I'll smack you"?

I can go along with that. What I CANNOT go along with is this: "You pull your sister's hair again and I'll KILL you"!!!... Or even worse: "If your brother pulls your hair again you may rightfully KILL him" as said from the father to the daughter...

And then the "good" child might conceivably write a poem about her parent, saying, "Dad is great, FAIR, and he looks after this children!"... and include this poem to their brother's obituary!!! Which, of course, would be a GREAT LIE...

There's a "slight" difference here, don't you see?


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Alpha Centauri wrote:


David Meadows wrote:
Can you accept that a parent can love all of this children but still say to one, "You pull your sister's hair again and I'll smack you"?

I can go along with that. What I CANNOT go along with is this: "You pull your sister's hair again and I'll KILL you"!!!... Or even worse: "If your sister pulls your hair again you may rightfully KILL her" as said from the father to the son...

There's a "slight" difference here, don't you see?


A difference of degree, certainly, but you agree with the principle?

And shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? (I'm sure you were arguing for that elsewhere.) Keeping generations of Israelites in slavery to build your pyramids, for example, is a massively greater crime than pulling your sister's hair and therefore deserving of a much greater punishment. God can deal out that punishment and still be "good" and "fair".


(I know historical doubt has been cast on the details of the "slavery", but we're discussing the Bible's internal consistency here so that's irrelevant.)




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No, David. I see NOTHING "good", NOR "fair" in god slaughtering thousands of innocent Egyptian infants just because his chosen ones had been in slavery to supposedly build the pyramids... This might attribute to Anubis or Hades but NOT to a "fair", "good" and "merciful" god... Unless we classify God into the Anubis and Hades category... Then I might agree with you...

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David Meadows wrote:

Thou shall not kill/murder... God's chosen people. Obviously. Nobody else counts because otherwise God would have chosen them too. So Israelites killing anybody else is ok as far as God is concerned. And God killing anybody (including Israelites) is obviously ok because he's God. I don't see what the problem is.



This is NOT what "chosen people" means. The Jewish belief was that the Jews were chosen to spread the word of God/monotheism. There is no belief within the Jewish religion that claims that God favors them. I fact, just the opposite. Christianity doesn't teach that God is for everyone; Christianity teaches that if you aren't Christian, you are condemned. Judaism teaches that it doesn't matter whether you are a Jew or not in God's eyes - what matters is that you are a good person and follow the morality that God teaches, whether through a belief in God, Buddha, or simply a secular belief in ethical behavior. This is why Christianity practices hard-sell conversion, whereas it is quite difficult to convert to Judaism.




That's kind of the whole point of Jesus's teaching. Or, how many Jews do you know that read the Gospels?



Well, let's see. I'm a jew and I've read most of the gospels. More than a lot of Christians I know. Most Jews I know have read the New Testament - and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that I probably associate with more Jews in general than you do (as I seem to be related to about 2/3 of the Jews in the country emoticon). Judaism teaches that the strongest faith is that which has been questioned and encourages its followers to learn about many religions.


nd I fail to see ANY difference between all those quoted above (which ARE true) and the Nazi racism as expressed in "Mein Kampf"... So, is there a possibility that the Bible was actually the "Mein Kampf" of its era???... I wonder...



MUST you compare everything in the world to Nazi Germany? The above statements are a misinterpretation of what Jews believe, and I would appreciate it if in the future you would avoid comparing Judaism to the culture of those who killed 6 million Jews and 1 million Romani - both of whom comprise my cultural background. I can think of very few ways you could possibly insult Judaism more thoroughly or less accurately. Judaism is about acceptance of all beliefs and peoples, as long as those people refrain from evil acts. And Judaism does NOT teach it's children to feel superior to others. There are sects of Christianity that teach their followers to believe the Jews are special in God's eyes, but Judaism itself does NOT teach this. In fact, Judaism as a whole considers such an attitude foolish, dangerous, and against God's wishes. Judaism believes that all of humanity is God's creation and is therefore to be valued.




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Oh boy... Let's see now...

addi30 wrote:
This is NOT what "chosen people" means. The Jewish belief was that the Jews were chosen to spread the word of God/monotheism. There is no belief within the Jewish religion that claims that God favors them.

That pretty much make the Jews God's apostles, right? I don't see how God wouldn't favor his apostles... Besides, most of the killings and attrocities mentioned in the initial post were committed in favor and/or on behalf of Jews... It's the bible's wording; not ours...

addi30 wrote:
MUST you compare everything in the world to Nazi Germany?

Not "everything", but everything that according to my opinion presents a resemblance, yes, I will compare to Nazi Germany. I believe I am entitled to have my own opinion, right? And if you think I am not, then you are welcome to edit my own posts anytime, what else can I say? Addi, it's not MY fault that many incidents or beliefs or actions that happen today or have happened in the past resemble the Nazi Germany actions and ideology. Whether you accept it or not, Nazi Germany IS a point of reference for us modern people, and the more we seek for possible similarities, the less we are like to fall for the next Nazi-like leader to come.

addi30 wrote:
...I would appreciate it if in the future you would avoid comparing Judaism to the culture of those who killed 6 million Jews and 1 million Romani - both of whom comprise my cultural background.

I didn't even mention Judaism in my posts, much less I compared Judaism to anything. I referred to passages from the bible which is COMMON for Jews AND Christians, remember? Now, since you brought figures and numbers into play, I would very much like you to tell me how many thousands or millions (or even billions) of deaths do the aforementioned killings and attrocities (described in the bible) sum up to???

addi30 wrote:
Judaism is about acceptance of all beliefs and peoples, as long as those people refrain from evil acts. And Judaism does NOT teach it's children to feel superior to others. There are sects of Christianity that teach their followers to believe the Jews are special in God's eyes, but Judaism itself does NOT teach this. In fact, Judaism as a whole considers such an attitude foolish, dangerous, and against God's wishes. Judaism believes that all of humanity is God's creation and is therefore to be valued.

I really don't care if Christianism is better than Judaism or vice-versa. Makes no difference to me. I'm an atheist, remember? So, I won't participate in this Judaism vs Christianism tag-o-war you seem to be initiating here... I would also suggest that my posts should be read in their philosophical aspect and NOT misinterpreted as "insults" to ANY religion whatsoever, since this is far from any intention of mine. Being an "infidel" atheist gives one the advantage of being as less fanatic (or prejudiced) as it gets.

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I'm not intitiating a one-is-better conversation, nor do I believe one is better than the other. While I very much enjoy the cultural aspects of Judaism and therefore consider myself Jewish, I do not believe in the religious aspects. Religiously, I am Universalist Unitarian. Culturally, I am a Jew. My grandfather was an atheist and a Jew; my father is agnostic and a Jew. Judaism is both a religion and a culture.

Although the fact that you "don't see how God wouldn't favor his apostles" speaks of your own character, not God's - and not the Jewish belief system.

Having been raised in the Jewish faith and having been the both the product of an interfaith marriage and currently in an interfaith marriage, I feel I can offer commentary on both faiths. As far as the Christian and Jewish Bibles go - there are differences in translation and there are differences in which books are included in the Old Testament. Further, a lot of Judaism's beliefs come not from the Torah, but from the Talmud. Additionally, as you've noted, there are many, many contradictions in the bible (which was written by men inspired by God in the branch of Judaism in which I was raised) - which is why the Talmud is of great importance in its influence over the Jewish belief system and the Jewish culture.

As to the Nazi comments - the fact that you feel it's apt doesn't make it fact. And expressing your opinion is fine, so long as you realize that others will express theirs as well, including disagreeing with you. I find the Nazi comparison to be very far off in a number of ways, not the least of which is the fact that Nazis discouraged faith in God. And you are correct - you personally didn't reference Judaism in your Nazi post. Instead, you quoted someone else's post about Judaism and then responded to it with the Nazi comments.

As far as editing your posts - I don't change people's posts in that manner and you know it, nor did I suggest such a thing. I will, however, continue to voice my disageement with you when it occurs. If you wanted automatic compliance, you picked the wrong person. But I suspect you already knew that. emoticon


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David Meadows wrote:

And shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? (I'm sure you were arguing for that elsewhere.) Keeping generations of Israelites in slavery to build your pyramids, for example, is a massively greater crime than pulling your sister's hair and therefore deserving of a much greater punishment. God can deal out that punishment and still be "good" and "fair".



Actually, that one statement is a heaping lie all on its own. The Egyptians didn't use slaves to build their pyramids. The men hired to construct these giant headstones were well-paid and treated with respect. I mean, think of the bad karma surrounding a structure built by starving men and women who hadn't eaten for days! Who'd want their immortal soul to reside in a place of such negativity? Some other structures, yes, I can definately see slaves working on them, but the pyramid was a sacred symbol of immortality, and no self-respecting pharoh would allow it's light to be tarnished by such bad vibrations.

As for punishment fitting the crime . . . ever heard of Hammurabi?

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Ahlyssah wrote:

Actually, that one statement is a heaping lie all on its own. The Egyptians didn't use slaves to build their pyramids. The men hired to construct these giant headstones were well-paid and treated with respect. I mean, think of the bad karma surrounding a structure built by starving men and women who hadn't eaten for days! Who'd want their immortal soul to reside in a place of such negativity? Some other structures, yes, I can definately see slaves working on them, but the pyramid was a sacred symbol of immortality, and no self-respecting pharoh would allow it's light to be tarnished by such bad vibrations.



Actually, there's two school of thought on that, and there really hasn't been a consensus reached on it from what I've read. It's also possible that the more favored slaves were used.

Either way, what the Israelites were building doesn't make slavery any more acceptable. However, I personally fail to see how killing off innocent babies would solve this - the babies didn't do it, for heaven's sake. Hammurabi's code is along the lines of "an eye for eye." The Bible tends to be more along the lines of "You kill my child, I get to kill yours." Kind of hard on the kids, I'm thinkin'. Never quite liked the thing about the rapist marrying the girl he raped to make it right either - or the part about it not being rape if it's near a public area. To me there is nothing "good" or "just" about those kinds of solutions.

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addi30 wrote:
This is NOT what "chosen people" means. The Jewish belief was that the Jews were chosen to spread the word of God/monotheism. There is no belief within the Jewish religion that claims that God favors them. I fact, just the opposite. Christianity doesn't teach that God is for everyone; Christianity teaches that if you aren't Christian, you are condemned. Judaism teaches that it doesn't matter whether you are a Jew or not in God's eyes - what matters is that you are a good person and follow the morality that God teaches, whether through a belief in God, Buddha, or simply a secular belief in ethical behavior. This is why Christianity practices hard-sell conversion, whereas it is quite difficult to convert to Judaism.


Obviously you will know more than me about this (I only know a handful of Jews personally) but I find it hard to reconcile your view with what I was taught when I studied the Bible. (Unfortunately the teaching was by Christian teachers, who were undoubtedly biased.)

The Christian reading of the Bible is that it tells us God did favour the Jews. He tells them, over and over, that he reserved a home for them, that he will smite their enemies, that he will feed them, protect them, and so on.

And I was told that the reason it is very hard to convert to Judaism is because they are the chosen people -- what right do the rest of us have to assume that privilige for ourselves?

And Christianity is an evangelical religion because the original Covenant was broken (by bad Jews) and part of God's new Covenant was that he was now for everyone. There are no more chosen people, anyone is free to accept Jesus and be saved. If you, after hearing God's message, do not accept him, then yes you are condemned. But the point is that we give you the chance of accepting him, unlike the Jews. (There is some debate, however, over the fate of people in far flung corners of the globe who have never been given the chance to convert to Christianity. But that's a different problem.)


[I'm on dodgy ground with the term "Christians", by the way, as it's hard to get any two Christians to agree on anything! You'll have to accept that when I say "Christians" I mean my particular sect.]





That's kind of the whole point of Jesus's teaching. Or, how many Jews do you know that read the Gospels?



Well, let's see. I'm a jew and I've read most of the gospels. More than a lot of Christians I know. Most Jews I know have read the New Testament - and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that I probably associate with more Jews in general than you do (as I seem to be related to about 2/3 of the Jews in the country emoticon). Judaism teaches that the strongest faith is that which has been questioned and encourages its followers to learn about many religions.



My bad wording. How many Jews do you know that believe the Gospels to be teachings from God? :)




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THis discussion seems to have been rather 'hot' in places, so I won't add much here, but just a few general thoughts:

For all the verses you've listed above, Alpha, I will again say CONTEXT. As I (tried) to show in my post to do with God being good to all or just a few, it is often easy to read something into a verse or verses that wasn't originally there, or to misunderstand the point that was trying to be made (and believe me, I've done that myself). Obviously, studying every single list on that verse would take an awful lot of time, and that's an awful lot of time I don't have. From a Christian bias, I honestly believe that those verses can be understood in a way that is both true to how they were written, and true to my belief that God IS good, and that he doesn't go around killing people out of spite or anger. If someone would like to pick out one or two verses, I'll have a look at them and see what I can find, but the longer list will have to sit.

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David, I understand what some branches of Christianity teach about Jews, and it is different than what Jews teach - the ""chosen people" thing is a very big example. As are the Jewish beliefs about religious leaders. For instance, a Rabbi is not a "representative" of God in the sense a priest would be. Instead, the Rabbi class was comprised of the most learned men of society (and women now in some branches) - and were therefore considered to be best able to interpret the word of God more accurately than one who was less educated. But they do not, strictly speaking, have the ability to speak for God in the sense that a priest would.

Additionally, while there hasn't been a Jewish excommunication in thousands of years, even then excommunications were different than Christian/Catholic excommunications. In the traditional Catholic excommunication, the individual was cut off from the church and therefore from God - and was therefore condemned.

In Judaism, excommunication means the individual is cut off from the Jewish community - but not from God. The individual relationship with God is considered personal, and something no human has the right to pass judgement upon. The core value of Judaism lies in the community/culture. At no time have I ever, in any temple I've been in, heard even one word from a Rabbi or a follower suggesting that non-Jews were somehow inferior in the eyes of God. It is simply not what Jews believe.

There are many contradictions in the Old Testament, and many in the New Testament. In Judaism, that's why the Talmud and the learned men - and to some extent the Kaballah - were so important in developing the value structure.

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Alpha Centauri wrote:

Even so, what's the difference? We're not talking about killings during a war here... We're talking about slaughter mostly... What god himself slaughtering thousands of Egyptian first born (according to the very bible) has to do with ...ethics??? What kind of a god is this???



The Father is the potter and we are the clay. Some vessels are made for honor and some for dishonor. What do we think about writing on a piece of paper--to create poetry--and then balling it up and throwing it in the garbage because we don't like it. Since the Father is the Creator He decides who, are what is worth keeping and what is refuse.

We have perfectly good clothes--we don't want them anymore--we throw them away. We judged our clothes because they were ours.

When a person or thing becomes dangerous to themselves as well as others, we put them in an insane asylum.

Our government says don't kill, but then we go to war, and condemn many to death row, electric chair, and lethal injection.

Our laws say don't kill, but then we kill infants while they are still in the womb, even those in the womb up to 6 months--tearing them limb from limb.

The Father, remember, is the Creator--therefore He gives all of us a TIME-when our time is up to stop being evil--and we are still evil then we are vessels of dishonor.

Then there are those who are born evil. The Scriptures say that as soon as they are born they go astray. The Father judges the spirits--the potential to change-the amount of evil at birth-and the potential to become so evil in time that hoping that they change will not happen and is not even worth waiting for.

Then there are those like the Neros and pharoahs of Egypt--who the Father knew would be evil but He used them to show the world just how it would be coming under the dominion of the evil one.

Each time, place, situation, condition, spirit, and so on and so forth, you can bet, was evaluated by the Father. Just because we quote the many verses of the Scriptures that says these things does not mean that a Father did wrong when He did what He did--for the Creator knows His creation.

If you knew the Father as He knows us and you--then you would understand many of the hard decisions the Father has to make regarding His creations.

The Father says that the wicked are like the grass of the field. You look out your window and the grass is growing, flourishing, green and plenty. You let it grow--then one day you look out of your window and the grass has grown to high--you go out and cut the grass and throw it into the furnace.

He gives them time--He looks and they are still weeds--sucking the life out of every plant that nourishes animals and humans They were weeds when they started--and in the course of time--when looking again--they are still the same life sucking weeds--they have not changed, and many times could not change--for when any man creates--he makes some vessels that are made right and he makes some vessels that need refinement--and he makes some vessels that are down right not worth keeping on the shelf.
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I understand we're coming from entirely different directions, Father8. For, you see, I highly respect the value of human life (along with any life form in general) and I strongly believe in the freedom of human will.

Thus, I would NEVER, EVER compare humans to clay, nor would I ever consider human life to equal the value of ...a poem on a piece of paper, nor of clothes, or shoes, or vessels, or weeds or whatever... Those who get electrocuted, are being killed just because they showed no respect to the value of another's life... Those who I may kill when at war I will still respect for they died for a cause. Those who commit abortion I will not condemn for I'm not aware of their personal conditions... And I will NEVER, EVER accept that a human can be BORN evil. Had you ever looked (really looked) into the eyes of a newborn you would've NEVER said (nor believe, or even accept) this yourself...

But what YOU describe above is not "God"... This is a cruel, indifferent, demanding, coldly professionalist quality control manager of a genetics laboratory! Who feels that is righteous to dump in the trashcan any genetic experiment which he thinks it doesn't conform with his "standards" (whetever they might be)...

I would NEVER, EVER accept (much less believe in) a "god" such as this one you describe... Boy, there are times like this I'm so glad to be an atheist...

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Alpha Centauri wrote:And I will NEVER, EVER accept that a human can be BORN evil. Had you ever looked (really looked) into the eyes of a newborn you would've NEVER said (nor believe, or even accept) this yourself... But what YOU describe above is not "God"... This is a cruel, indifferent, demanding, coldly professionalist quality control manager of a genetics laboratory! Who feels that is righteous to dump in the trashcan any genetic experiment which he thinks it doesn't conform with his "standards" (whetever they might be)...I would NEVER, EVER accept (much less believe in) a "god" such as this one you describe... Boy, there are times like this I'm so glad to be an atheist...


Well, I am not an atheist; yet I totally agree with AC's above points ...


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Location: In my own little world....
Posts: 1107
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Re: Biblical ...ethics.


Same here.

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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
1/Sep/04, 14:17 Link to this post Email   PM 
 


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