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Re: Jesus' last words



WCWriter wrote:
...(a very recognized authority)...

That's exactly the point of my initial post WCWriter: The Biblical contents can be found in so many versions/translations/interpretations that we seem to have to rely on "recognized authorities" to tell us which one is "true" and which one is "faulty"...

"Recognized authority".... Hmmm... By whose appointment? I wonder...

emoticon

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Re: Jesus' last words


Ah, authorities . . . the only thing that separates them from the average person is a podium and a list of things to say that make people nod their heads. Sad how few people actually question their declarations. Hell, look what happened at Jonestown . . .


Think for yourself, people!


Last edited by:
Ahlyssah, 24/Oct/04, 19:56


---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: Jesus' last words


Because I have had no formal training in reading Greek or Hebrew, I have to allow someone's translation to stand for me. The reason I call the Strong's Concordance a recognized authority I researched it for myself. I do have access to other dictionaries, concordances, and texts written by people far more knowledgeable than I. If you would like I will gladly research the phrases mentioned in the first post, give you the Greek writing as it was originally recorded and then interpret it. I will even try to include the references for each word, it's greek and hebrew meanings, and anything else you request within reason.
Somehow I doubt this is the real foundation of your argument. If I read this correctly, you are questioning the authority of what we read in the Bible. Because it is written by men, and because it supposedly has the true word of God in it, you question whether it really is an expression of God's word. I cannot answer that question for you, all I am able to say is that it is an expression that I choose to believe is God's word. I also feel God lets us interpret what the word means to each of us, thus we carry our own Bible within us. Whether you agree or not is simply your choice. I am only trying to share what I believe, I am not seeking converts. That is not the way I see myself serving God and my fellow man.

WC
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Re: Jesus' last words


Before the question of the Redeemer's last words came up, I had been looking for the real meaning of His last words. The Spirit of the Father kept telling me that these were not the real words of the Redeemer. I looked and looked, and found nothing then, but now, when looking up something else entirely, I came across some info.

Should of written down the source...didn't...may have to find it again. Anyway, the word Eli is the same word as Heli or Helios, the sun god. It went something like this--Heli, Heli, you have taken your power from me!

Do I think that these are the true interpretation? Yes, but I don't believe the Redeemer said this. I believe it was put there like all the other stuff that has been added to and taken away from the word.
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Re: Jesus' last words



ofthe Father8 wrote:. Anyway, the word Eli is the same word as Heli or Helios, the sun god. It went something like this--Heli, Heli, you have taken your power from me!

So, given that (according to the N.T.) the sun disappeared at the time of the crusifiction and darkeness prevailed, Jesus, at his dying moment, tells the sun: {See? I told you so, you can't shine with out me because... "you are taking your power from me"!} Hmmm... emoticon
How about an alternative, F8? Have you read the gospell of Peter?...He, who was present at the time of the crusifiction, says that Jesus' last words were: "My power, my power, why hast thou forsaken me?"...
Take a look at this link:http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-03.htm#P181_16515



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Re: Jesus' last words


I will check out the site.
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Re: Jesus' last words


Matthew 28:18-20 ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’
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Re: Jesus' last words


The three quotes were at different times during the crucifixion. I believe the "It is finished" to be the last.

Actually, Eli is a shortened/mistranslated version of Elohim (in hebrew) which is the Father's name.

Christ had to do that last thing by himself. That is why He said "why hast thou forsaken me"
It was part of the last test, basically.

And as for the corruption of most of the churches out there...yes, I believe that they are all slightly twisted from the original message, even the catholic church. The catholic church was put together by Constantine, and their beliefs were nailed down by popular vote during the various councils of Nicea. All the other churches are a branch of the catholic, just adjusting certain beliefs here and there.

In fact this was prophesied by the original apostles. They said that there would be a falling away or an apostacy.

It happened. The churches today fell away from the truth, the Bible (as we know it) was altered. (a side note....the Bible didn't exist til the catholic church, it was a whole bunch of smaller books scattered around. Nor is it the only word of God.) This falling away is mentioned in 2 Timothy and 2 Thessalonians and various other spots. Peter (in Acts) speaks of a restoration of the truth that must happen.

(I'm sorry I don't have the quotes as I'm at a computer lab away from home)
--
This restoration occured to with God and His Son (yes the two are separate and distinct) visiting someone in 1821. There was a retranlation of the 'Bible', a new set of scriptures was given (translated from ancient texts dating to before the time of Christ up through his life) and more revelations were given. The authority to perform ordinances was restored (as the line had been previously broken). And there is a Prophet today who speaks with God, as did Moses, etc. Wanna know more? www.lds.org
--
Not trying to convince you all, just showing you where I come from ;)


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Re: Jesus' last words


Isn't Elohim the plural form, meaning many gods?
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Re: Jesus' last words


Actually yes and no
They have two uses for the word

one does mean "many Gods"

but the other is "God of Gods"

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Re: Jesus' last words


I don't trust it. Because, to my understanding many people worshipped El and he wasn't the Father or the Son, but was worshipped by those against the Father and they added his name to the ends of their names. They also added El to the end of names of people who did worship the Father and the Son in the Scriptures, and I think this was one of those adding and taking away from the word things.

Below you will find the results of the Strong's Concordance which is the questionable part of the search results. Persians, Cannanites, Syrians and others used the name as well. In one, El is used to describe a wild goat, and an idol, a thing of worthlessness, in another it could be used of any god.


Strong's Lexicon Search Results

110 'Adb'el ad-beh-ale' probably from 109 (in the sense of chastisement) and 410; disciplined of God; Adbeel, a son of Ishmael:--Adbeel.
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410 'el ale shortened from 352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
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411 'el ale a demonstrative particle (but only in a plural sense) these or those:--these, those. Compare 428.
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412 'el ale (Aramaic) corresponding to 411:--these.
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413 'el ale (but only used in the shortened constructive form sel {el}); a primitive particle; properly, denoting motion towards, but occasionally used of a quiescent position, i.e. near, with or among; often in general, to:--about, according to ,after, against, among, as for, at, because(-fore, -side), both...and, by, concerning, for, from, X hath, in(- to), near, (out) of, over, through, to(-ward), under, unto, upon, whether, with(-in).
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417 'elgabiysh el-gaw-beesh' from 410 and 1378; hail (as if a great pearl):--great hail(-stones).
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426 'elahh el-aw' (Aramaic) corresponding to 433; God:--God, god.
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428 'el-leh ale'-leh prolonged from 411; these or those:--an- (the) other; one sort, so, some, such, them, these (same), they, this, those, thus, which, who(-m).
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430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
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433 'elowahh el-o'-ah; rarely (shortened) >eloahh {el-o'-ah probably prolonged (emphat.) from 410; a deity or the Deity:--God, god. See 430.
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434 'eluwl el-ool' for 457; good for nothing:--thing of nought.
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453 'Eliyhuw el-ee-hoo' or (fully) dEliyhuwh {el-ee-hoo'}; from 410 and 1931; God of him; Elihu, the name of one of Job's friends, and of three Israelites:--Elihu.
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457 'eliyl el-eel' apparently from 408; good for nothing, by anal. vain or vanity; specifically an idol:--idol, no value, thing of nought.
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464 'Eliyphaz el-ee-faz' from 410 and 6337; God of gold; Eliphaz, the name of one of Job's friends, and of a son of Esau:--Eliphaz.

1352 go'el go'-el from 1351; profanation:--defile.
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2870 tab'el taw-beh-ale' from 2895 and 410; pleasing (to) God; Tabeel, the name of a Syrian and of a Persian:--Tabeal, Tabeel.

3277 ya`el yaw-ale' from 3276; an ibex (as climbing):--wild goat.
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3278 Ya`el yaw-ale' the same as 3277; Jael, a Canaanite:--Jael.
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3371 Yoqth'el yok-theh-ale' probably from the same as 3348 and 410; veneration of God (Compare 3354); Joktheel, the name of a place in Palestine, and of one in Idumaea:--Joktheel.
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4025 Magdiy'el mag-dee-ale' from 4022 and 410; preciousness of God; Magdiel, an Idumaean:--Magdiel.
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4105 Mheytab'el meh-hay-tab-ale' from 3190 (augmented) and 410; bettered of God; Mehetabel, the name of an Edomitish man and woman:--Mehetabeel, Mehetabel.
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6628 tse'el tseh'-el from an unused root meaning to be slender; the lotus tree:--shady tree.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
7467 R`uw'el reh-oo-ale' from the same as 7466 and 410; friend of God; Reuel, the name of Moses' father-in-law, also of an Edomite and an Israelite:--Raguel, Reuel.
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7501 Rpha'el ref-aw-ale' from 7495 and 410; God has cured; Rephael, an Israelite:--Rephael.
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Re: Jesus' last words


Baal, El, Ruler of the Universe

Baal (ba'al), plural Baalim (ba'allm) [Semitic,= possessor], name used throughout the Old Testament for the deity or deities of Canaan. The term was originally applied to various local gods, but by the time of the Ugarit tablets (14th cent. B.C.), Baal had become the ruler of the universe. Baal (Hadad) is regularly denominated "the son of Dagan," although Dagan (biblical Dagon) does not appear as an actor in the mythological texts. Baal also bears the titles "Rider of the Clouds," "Almighty," and "Lord of the Earth." He is the god of the thunderstorm, the most vigorous and aggressive of the gods, the one on whom mortals most immediately depend. Baal resides on Mount Zaphon, north of Ugarit, and is usually depicted holding a thunderbolt. Baal, also known as El. In 1978, Israeli archaeologists excavating at an eighth-century B.C. site in the eastern Sinai desert found several Hebrew inscriptions mentioning Ba'al and El in the form of "Elohim," a name used to refer to God in the Hebrew Bible. Further, whenever the Jews refer to God or our God they use "Eloh, Elohaino or Elohim."

The Ugarit tablets make him chief of the Canaanite pantheon. He is the source of life and fertility, the mightiest hero, and the lord of war. There were many temples of Baal in Canaan, and the name Baal was often added to that of a locality, e.g., Baal-peor, Baal-hazor, Baal-hermon. The Baal cult penetrated Israel and at times led to a syncretism. The practices of holy prostitution and child sacrifice were especially abhorrent to the Hebrew prophets, who denounced the cult and its "high places" (temples). This abhorrence probably explains the substitution of Ish-bosheth for Esh-baal, of Jerubbesheth for Jerubbaal (a name of Gideon), and of Mephibosheth for Merib-baal. The substituted term probably means "shame." The final detestation of the term is seen in the use of the name Beelzebub (see SATAN), probably the same as Baal-zebub. 1 Kings 11.4-8; 2 Kings 1. The Baal of 1 Chron. 4.33 is probably the same as RAMAH 3. As cognates of Baal in other Semitic languages there are Bel (in Babylonian religion) and the last elements in the Tyrian names Jezebel, Hasdrubal, and Hannibal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Bequest Unearthed Phoenicia -- Encyclopedia Phoeniciana

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Re: Jesus' last words


oftheFather
ok ok...'El' may be that, but 'Elohim' is MUCH different.

In the Hebrew text they use the word "Elohim" instead of the word "God" in the early chapters of Genesis.
Ex.
"
1 IN the abeginning Elohim created the heaven and the eearth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and bdarkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was good: and Elohim divided the light from the darkness.
"

Just because another nation used El for pagan dieties, does not preclude hebrew words beginning with El refering to the true God. (I love linguistics and I have researched this a bit)

Nice bit of research you did there though:
"
430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
"
This is the very near the use I spoke of. :)

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Jer.23
[27] Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

The people served Baal and they served the Father too. This is how the name El, which is Baal, got mixed up. When the people mixed the two together. Knowing this, I do not trust El nor Elohim.
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They feared the Father and served other gods. This is where the mixture came into play.




Kings 17:33 They feared the LORD, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence.

2 Kings 17:41 So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.
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I respect your ideas but I will hold to my belief.

I think what happened may have been a reverse of what you said. I think the Isrealites ascribed the name of the one true God to Baal, not the other way around. El has been used long before Baal came into the picture and they most likely (when they were not obedient) began calling Baal after the name of God. El does not mean Baal, but means God.
It was revealed to present day apostles and prophets that Elohim is God's name, that is where I put the main part of my belief and faith. The written documentation is secondary, but also valid.

But you may trust as you will, every man is afforded that right. :)

I must, however, say that you are a very good researcher and I admire your conviction.

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Mixing continued

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.

Jeremiah 7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;

10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?


34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.

38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.
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Mixture

During the forty years of wandering in the wilderness, the children of Israel carried the tabernacle of God. They were strong believers in the true God, as we all know. However, some of them were not content with this, so they added something. They made unto themselves a Babylonian tabernacle that they carried with them also! As God said:

"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images" (Amos 5:26).

This apostasy is also mentioned in the New Testament where these idol gods they carried are called Remphan and Chiun, which are but different names of BAAL (Nimrod) and ASTARTE (the Mother-Goddess). Because tof this mixture, God rejected their songs of worship, sacrifices, and offerings. Though these were made to him – to the true God – yet such worship was not accepted because it was a MIXTURE.

To cite another Biblical example of how paganism and the worship of the Lord were mixed together, let us notice the Seventeenth Chapter of Second Kings. In this chapter, we read that the children of Israel fell into false worship. They instituted secret rites; built high places; worshipped the sun, moon, and stars; used divination and enchantments; cause their children to pass through the fire; etc. (Verses 9-17).

As a result, they were driven from their own land. Then the king of Assyria brought men from various nations, including Babylon, to inhabit the land from which the children of Israel had been driven. These nations also practiced heathenistic rituals and God sent lions among them. Seeing that the LORD was against their paganism, they sent for a man of God that had been carried away in the captivity. They wanted him to teach them how to worship and fear the LORd.

"Howebeit every nation made gods of their own" and these gods are listed in verses 29-31. They attempted to worshop these gods and the LORD also – a IXTURE.

"SO" – in this way – "they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests...they feared the LORD, and served their own gods" (Verse 32). Such worship was rejected by God – he hates a mixture. Even though these nations claimed to worship the LORD, they served idols also. Today, likewise, Romanism claims to worship the LORD, but it is obviously a system that is a mixture of idol worship.

In the days of Zephaniah, another attempt to merge heathen worhsip with the worship of the true God occurred.

Concerning this, our Lord said: "I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place...And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham" (Zephaniah 1:4-5)

Why was God going to destroy them? Were they not worshipping the LORD? Yes, but this worship of the LORD was mixed with Baal worship. God requires a pure worship and rejects a mixture-worship!

From Babylon, Mystery Religion
Reverend Ralph Woodrow, 1965

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Hosea 2:16

And it shall be at that day, saith the Father, that thou shalt call me Ishi, and shalt call me no more Baali.

I don't recommend Ishi either. It is the name for another god. Yet the Father is saying you shall call me Husband, and no longer Baali.

The people of the Father were calling Him Baali.

Now Baal, El, Elohim, Heli and Allah are the same.

When you do research in the Strong's Concordance you will see that Allah is El. It tells you to look up the names of El under Allah.

I will put the Strong Concordance notes in the post below.


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Strong's Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "allah":

427 'allah al-law' A variation of 424:--oak.
 
414 'Ela' ay-law' a variation of 424; oak; Ela, an Israelite:--Elah.
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424 'elah ay-law' feminine of 352; an oak or other strong tree:--elm, oak, teil-tree.
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425 'Elah ay-law' the same as 424; Elah, the name of an Edomite, of four Israelites, and also of a place in Palestine:--Elah.
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427 'allah al-law' A variation of 424:--oak.

352 'ayil ah'-yil from the same as 193; properly, strength; hence, anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:--mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.
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353 'eyal eh-yawl' a variation of 352; strength:--strength.
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354 'ayal ah-yawl' an intensive form of 352 (in the sense of ram); a stag or male deer:--hart.
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356 'Eylown ay-lone' or (shortened) ;Elown {ay-lone'}; or Eylon {ay- lone'}; from 352; oak-grove; Elon, the name of a place in Palestine, and also of one Hittite, two Israelites:--Elon.
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359 'Eylowth ay-loth' or mEylath {ay-lath'}; from 352; trees or a grove (i.e. palms); Eloth or Elath, a place on the Red Sea:--Elath, Eloth.
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361 'eylam ay-lawm' or (shortened) ;elam {ay-lawm'}; or (feminine) ielammah {ay-lam-maw'}; probably from 352; a pillar-space (or colonnade), i.e. a pale (or portico):--arch.
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362 'Eylim ay-leem' plural of 352; palm-trees; Elim, a place in the Desert:--Elim.
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364 'Eyl Pa'ran ale paw-rawn' from 352 and 6290; oak of Paran; El- Paran, a portion of the district of Paran:--El-paran.
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410 'el ale shortened from 352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
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424 'elah ay-law' feminine of 352; an oak or other strong tree:--elm, oak, teil-tree.
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436 'elown ay-lone' prolonged from 352; an oak or other strong tree:--plain. See also 356

193 'uwl ool from an unused root meaning to twist, i.e. (by implication) be strong; the body (as being rolled together); also powerful:--mighty, strength.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Jesus' last words-Baal


All these come from Baal-notice the El in some of the names, as well as some of the Father's people who have Baal in their names, not to mention, the sun god, Shamesh, Chiun and Remphan.

Strong's Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "baal":

1010 Beyth Ba`al M`own bayth bah'-al me-own' from 1004 and 1168 and 4583; house of Baal of (the) habitation of (apparently by transposition); or (shorter) Beyth M own {bayth me-own'}; house of habitation of (Baal); Beth- Baal-Meon, a place in Palestine:--Beth-baal-meon. Compare 1186 and 1194.

Result of search for "1004":

1007 Beyth 'Aven bayth aw'-ven from 1004 and 205; house of vanity; Beth- Aven, a place in Palestine:--Beth-aven.
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1008 Beyth-'El bayth-ale' from 1004 and 410; house of God; Beth-El, a place in Palestine:--Beth-el.

1053 Beyth Shemesh bayth sheh'-mesh from 1004 and 8121; house of (the) sun; Beth-Shemesh, a place in Palestine:--Beth-shemesh.

1172 ba`alah bah-al-aw' feminine of 1167; a mistress:--that hath, mistress

1179 Ba`al Chermown bah'-al kher-mone' from 1167 and 2768; possessor of Hermon; Baal-Chermon, a place in Palestine:--Baal-hermon.
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1180 Ba`aliy bah-al-ee' from 1167 with pron. suff.; my master; Baali, a symbolical name for Jehovah:--Baali.

1184 Ba`aley Yhuwdah bah-al-ay' yeh-hoo-daw' from the plural of 1167 and 3063; masters of Judah; Baale-Jehudah, a place in Palestine:--Baale of Judah.

420 'Elda`ah el-daw-aw' from 410 and 3045; God of knowledge; Eldaah, a son of Midian:--Eldaah.
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450 'Elyada` el-yaw-daw' from 410 and 3045; God (is) knowing; Eljada, the name of two Israelites and of an Aramaean leader:--Eliada.
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1182 B`elyada` beh-el-yaw-daw' from 1168 and 3045; Baal has known; Beeljada, an Israelite:--Beeliada.
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1843 dea` day'-ah from 3045; knowledge:--knowledge, opinion.
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1845 D`uw'el deh-oo-ale' from 3045 and 410; known of God; Deuel, an Israelite:--Deuel

3560 Kuwn koon probably from 3559; established; Kun, a place in Syria:--Chun.
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3561 kavvan kav-vawn' from 3559; something prepared, i.e. a sacrificial wafer:--cake.
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3562 Kownanyahuw ko-nan-yaw'-hoo from 3559 and 3050; Jah has sustained; Conanjah, the name of two Israelites:--Conaniah, Cononiah. Compare 3663.
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3594 Kiyuwn kee-yoon' from 3559; properly, a statue, i.e. idol; but used (by euphemism) for some heathen deity (perhaps corresponding to Priapus or Baal-peor):--Chiun.
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3080 Yhowyariyb yeh-ho-yaw-reeb' from 3068 and 7378; Jehovah will contend; Jehojarib, the name of two Israelites:--Jehoiarib. Compare 3114.


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3377 Yareb yaw-rabe' from 7378; he will contend; Jareb, a symbolical name for Assyria:--Jareb. Compare 3402.
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3378 Yrubba`al yer-oob-bah'-al from 7378 and 1168; Baal will contend; Jerubbaal, a symbol. name of Gideon:--Jerubbaal.
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3379 Yarob`am yaw-rob-awm' from 7378 and 5971; (the) people will contend; Jarobam, the name of two Israelite kings:--Jeroboam.
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3380 Yrubbesheth yer-oob-beh'-sheth from 7378 and 1322; shame (i.e. the idol) will contend; Jerubbesheth, a symbol. name for Gideon: -Jerubbesheth.

2/Mar/05, 21:39 Link to this post Email   PM  Blog
 
ashmosh314 Profile
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Re: Jesus' last words



Alpha Centauri wrote:

Whatever... Still the question applies: Which one of the above was Jesus' last words?



They were all His last words... each letter and word is specifically and strategically placed to reveal something hidden to the dilligent seeker. Each statement holds such deep meaning that it requires heavy meditation on and contemplation and understanding the the Bible according to our own capacity.

When He was on the cross He said each of these things for a reason and each Apostle wrote each part of this down seperately for a reason.




20/Feb/06, 19:53 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Jesus' last words



Constantine and his clan were not of the Father's Spirit. They were of the spirit of the sun god or the serpent the sun god's representative and satan. They pretended to be of the Father and His Son.

Lost me here.What on earth?
The apostle John-out of the 4 synoptic gospels-was the only eyewitness(of the apostles)to the Passion and death of Jesus.
He was there at the Crucifixion.

The words It is fnished may have been the completion of the Passover-according to the gospel accounts they skipped the 4th cup.
The NT was not written until approx 77 AD.Might stand corrected,but fairly certain.

Some of the gospels mentioned in this thread were spurious.Gnostic gospels.Gnosticism is a heresy.
GB!~
p4p


---

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