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Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: Does God have free will?...



WCWriter wrote:

Please Lyssa, you are taking me a bit too literally. I say that just to take the edge off, we are sometimes way too serious with our opinions regarding God. The bible itself says no man can truly understand the mind of God. A debate of this nature must remain good natured because if it doesn't we end up with hatred, vengeance, murder, and war as a result. Remember: more death annd destruction has been perpetrated in the name of God than any other battle or war ever fought. I am sorry again if I offend, I am just old enough to know how upset folks can get when you discuss religion or politics and your view doesn't precisely the truth that they believe in.



Oops, looks like you're taking ME a bit too seriously. emoticon Sorry if that came out sounding rather harsh; kinda hard to add emotion to online posts. I am in no way offended by your post. And you are absolutely right: people are too steadfast in their opinions. Not that it's a terrible thing to be so passionate about one's feelings, but as we all know, minds are like parachutes; they only function when open.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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mackG Profile
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Re: Does God have free will?...


I think God definetly has free will. And yes this means he created evil as well as good.
i think "God is the cause of all causes" meaning whatever happens God is always behind it, no matter what, whether it be good, bad or neutral. So yes he must have free will then.
Its like a artist making a sculpture. He/she can do whatever they like to it and make it however they like. They can make it a good sculpture, or a bad sculpture, of a human or of an animal. In the same way God created the world (and universes etc) and he made them however he wanted. He wasnt forced to make the world how it is today.
24/Mar/05, 18:01 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
Loud G Profile
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Re: Does God have free will?...



Alpha Centauri wrote:

You're right, David!!! That's the way it oughta be... I can see it now... But... given all that... what is mankind -in such case- supposed to be, anyway? Kinda "divine" experiment???



Well, I'm glad you brought that up Alpha :)

Yes, God has free will. Free will is the name of the game with God's creations. He will not force anyone to do anything they do not of themselves want to do. Nor will He do anything He does not want to do.

We were all created by God and lived with him as spirits before coming to this earth. Jesus was the first-born of God's spirit children. Lucifer (another one of His children) became jealous and power hungry, he did not understand the plan God had for His children (nor probably cared to understand).

God wanted His children to become like Him. So he created an Earth to test us. Since it is hard to see what a child will do with his life while still living with his parents, He set us loose. It is not an divine experiment so much as a divine school. We are here to learn to be like Him. To learn to act as He would. Non-selfishly. For the greater good.

He knew there had to be opposition in all things, that is why he allowed Satan to bring evil to the world through the free will of others. The people he tempted caused evil.

Our first parents (Adam and Eve) were placed here and Satan sought to defy God's plan by making them mortal. But he played right into God's hand unwittingly. God knew this would happen and had provided a Savior, from before the world was, to redeem man of his sins, if he would only repent and follow Christ.

The spiritual battle that began with the rebellion of Satan continues today. It is not a battle of swords and armies, but of ideas and truths.

In the end God will win the battle, once His full purpose has been carried out. Then those who did well will return to become like the Father. Those who did not will progress no further.

Satan uses small bits of truth mixed with lies to decieve God's children. This is why there can be found some amount of truth in every religion. But none of them (except God's) have all the truth. They attempt to answer eternity's great questions but are flawed by human corruption. This has been the way of Satan since the beginning. If he told out and out lies, none would believe him, so he must lace his lies with a glimmer of truth.

---
Writing: Eriadhin

24/Mar/05, 19:58 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: Does God have free will?...


Just from my point of view, your explanation of God allowing Satan to bring evil to the world sounds rather analogous to a parent letting her son play with the kid up the block who was kicked out of school for vandalizing the principal's car. It's just not something that a responsible parent allows to happen. True, we can't avoid all contact with that child, but we can warn our children to keep away from him at all times. We don't allow that child to enter our homes and spend time with our offspring; that is just plain begging for a conflict. Or is this just another divine examination? Though I personally wouldn't hand my son a pack of cigarettes to test his resistance to smoking.


---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: Does God have free will?...


Ahlyssah, very good thoughts.

That is why God gave us commandments. So we would know what He wanted, but so we could also choose.

He told us not to play with that nasty boy up the street, but often we do it anyway :)

And yep, it al comes back to that divine examination :D

---
Writing: Eriadhin

6/Apr/05, 18:19 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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No, Loud G, He did not give US commandments; he gave the Israelites commandments. The rest of the world was left coughing in the dust. It's like the old story of the lord who named his eldest son as his heir, and showered him with gifts while the younger son was neglected and abused. You can't pick favorites and expect everyone to follow you with equal enthusiasm. If the story of the commandments is true, however (and I do honestly doubt its validity), then this DOES prove that God hass free will; he chose which group of people he wanted saved, and which groups he saw fit for damnation.

Okay, maybe that's a bit harsh. But it does indeed show signs of a deliberate decision. It also shows that God possessed the ability for contempt, and maybe even hate, and that's a very high level of thinking. So, I'd have to say yes to the free-will question.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
6/Apr/05, 21:36 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: Does God have free will?...


well, it all depends on what you believe :)

if you believe in Adam, then God gave all mankind commandments(they were not all written down though)
because we are all descended from him.

if not, but you believe in Noah, then God gave all mankind commandments because we are all descended from him.
The descendents of Noah split into Three Groups Africa, Asia and Europe. Basically. The Americas were populated later.
The only one who kept the commandments was Japheth (from whom Europe and Muslims descended)

This happened many times where the people of the Earth split off from the lineage of Noah to follow their own gods.
The Muslims descend from Abraham just as the Isrealites do. And Abraham had commandments.

But you have a point. Many people could see themselves as being left out depending on what they believe :)

---
Writing: Eriadhin

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Ahlyssah Profile
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Ah, but what if you don't believe in any of them? emoticon

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: Does God have free will?...



Loud G wrote:

The descendents of Noah split into Three Groups Africa, Asia and Europe. Basically. The Americas were populated later.
The only one who kept the commandments was Japheth (from whom Europe and Muslims descended)



It seems a rather harsh way to treat 75% of the world's population.

Fair enough for those original descendents of Noah who turned their back on God and went off to Asia - it was their choice so they deserved all they got from their inferior, no-way-to-salvation religions.

But what about their sons, who didn't have a choice? And their sons? And theirs? And the next N generations who never had the choice of hearing God's word, until European missionaries finally got over there? Must they be punished for the sins of thier distant ancestors?

I don't think God would be that cruel and capricious. I think he gave them an alternative. Their fathers hadn't taken the religion of the Israelites with them, so God allowed other religions - Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on - to be just as valid ways to salvation. It was the only way for Him to be fair to people who, through no fault of their own, were not able to hear His word.




Last edited by:
David Meadows, 20/Apr/05, 0:04


---
Reading without thinking will confuse you.
Thinking without reading will place you in danger.
-- Confucius, Spring and Autumn Period
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Loud G Profile
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Re: Does God have free will?...



David Meadows wrote:

But what about their sons, who didn't have a choice? And their sons? And theirs? And the next N generations who never had the choice of hearing God's word, until European missionaries finally got over there? Must they be punished for the sins of thier distant ancestors?

I don't think God would be that cruel and capricious. I think he gave them an alternative.



You are exactly right. God isn't that heartless. He prepared a way that those who never had a chance to recieve the Gospel in life could recieve it in the life to come. Peter spoke of this In acts and in his book of 1 Peter.

All will recieve the oportunity to recieve Salvation should they so desire. All will get to choose. Some just have to wait a little longer.

What you said is true. Although the other religions were not the same path, they had some truths that would lead a man to live better. Thus they were given SOME light (not the whole light) to help them make that choice when the time came.

---
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I spy a conflict here . . .

Let's suppose that, at the end of the world, God does reveal himself to all of mankind. Now, if by the acts of disgruntled priests and opinionated scribes, the Bible and all other holy books are packed with false information (I'm not saying this is certain, only likely IMO). How would humans, including all the old fashioned "God-fearing Christians" react? In the most probable scenario, most Bible-thumbers will, by the very nature of their religious sects, reject the real God as a manisfestation of Satan, and go on having the utmost faith in the God they were taught, by their parents, clergy, and the Bible, in which to believe.

Who then, in that case, would actually make it into Heaven? Would it simply be all the so-called "Christians" who know the Bible by heart, yet still commit crimes and can't discern the true Lord when he comes up and taps them on the shoulder? Or will it be the people who maybe have previously thought differently about the existence of God, or worshipped other Gods, but were still in general really good people? I guess we'll have to wait until the Second Coming to answer that one . . .

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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yep! :emoticons::

you got to very extreme groups there for your comparison, of course the good non-christian people are gonna win over the sinning christians.*

But the good Christians will have their foot in the door already ;)

*this is because God will give them the chance to choose yea or nay.

But you are right Ahlyssah, a LOT of people are gonna be surprised when He does come back. Some probably to the point of not recognizing HIM. That was actually prophesied.

And yeah, the Bible is not perfect. I know that. But I believe it is true as long as it has been translated correctly.
Some things were taken out of it. Some things continue to be taken out of it.

(For example: Not to point fingers or offend. The Jehovah's Witnesses have their own translation in which dozens of verses are systematically removed. These tend to coincide with the ideas they do not believe in. Like fasting for example. They removed Matthew 14:16 because it talks about fasting.)

It still goes on. This is why Divine communication and revelation are a necessity, other wise you have a dead church. IE. one that is not recieving their updates from the main server (if you take my meaning) ;)


---
Writing: Eriadhin

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Re: Does God have free will?...



you got to very extreme groups there for your comparison, of course the good non-christian people are gonna win over the sinning christians.*



Do I understand correctly that your saying you believe that non-Christians can go to heaven?
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Yeah. Why? ::Grins::

Radical huh? But true none the less.

Maybe the Non-christians didn't have a chance to hear of Christ. God is not gonna hold that against them. That would be a horrible and mean god indeed.

God has always said to not be a respecter of persons.
He loves all just the same, christian, non-christian, athiest, non-thiest, whatever. They are all His children.

Everyone will get a chance.

---
Writing: Eriadhin

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Addi wrote:
Do I understand correctly that your saying you believe that non-Christians can go to heaven?


The good news is that Christ died to redeem everybody - yes, even you and me.

I have the feeling that on the day of judgement it's going to become blindingly obvious to all the non-Christians that they were wrong and that Christ is the way to salvation - and of course you can accept Christ at any point, even in the very last nanosecond before oblivion, and be saved. So it's kind of a win-win situation. (As it would have to be - for God is good.)



---
Reading without thinking will confuse you.
Thinking without reading will place you in danger.
-- Confucius, Spring and Autumn Period
22/Apr/05, 21:08 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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So, all that, "Repent now or you're going to HELL!" stuff you hear all the time is rubbish, eh? emoticon

If only the pastors at my first church could be here today . . .

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Ahlyssah wrote:

So, all that, "Repent now or you're going to HELL!" stuff you hear all the time is rubbish, eh? emoticon


Pretty much, yes. In fact, it's basically a heresy (if you confess your sins and ask for forgiveness, you're denying the truth that Christ already died to forgive them).



---
"The Spirit that guides you, follow it through.
To the Spirit inside you, always be true."
--Tony Clarkin, The Spirit.
30/Apr/05, 0:34 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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well, yes He already died for them and pated the price for them.

But in order to accept that sacrifice He Does require that we repent for each sin. Each unrepented sin is like a slap in the face, saying "HA! You died, and I sinned, but who cares!"


Ahlyssa: Notice, those who are given truth and light are held to a higher standard than those who have less truth and light. The more you get the more is expected of you.

---
Writing: Eriadhin

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Loud G wrote:
But in order to accept that sacrifice He Does require that we repent for each sin. Each unrepented sin is like a slap in the face, saying "HA! You died, and I sinned, but who cares!"



Actually, there are quite a few people I can think about right now that would do something like that.


Ahlyssa: Notice, those who are given truth and light are held to a higher standard than those who have less truth and light. The more you get the more is expected of you.



True, but that's somewhat parallel to the expectation that those with power will use it for good, and we've seen THAT flunk pretty hard in the past century.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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