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Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: Who should get into heaven?


Why should we bother destroying Satan when he does not exist outside of Biblical references?

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
27/Feb/06, 4:32 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Johanis wrote:

When making statements like "okay to sell girl to slavery" one must understand the context and read the whole part then we see that this was not how it seemed



I think the big context we all need to understand is that the Bible is a book, written by man, and changed over time. Divine word of God? You might argue that, but if so, how come pretty much everything in there applies to the general way of life of THAT particular region? It only mentions animals in that region, it only talks about those particular places, and nowhere does it even hint about the secrets of the lands outside of the Biblical scope, for instance the Far East, South America, and the Arctic Circle. Why does not God in all his wisdom warn his people from consuming the flesh of the fugu, whereas he explicitly warns them away from pork and shrimp?

As for how it seems to you:

Exodus 21:7--- "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Exodus 21:8--- "If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. "

The words "sell" and "master" don't really leave much room for compromise. She is no longer her father's daughter; she is the property of another man. As for "betrothed her to himself," the common interpretation of this is that the woman is a concubine. That is open to debate, but not very much in my opinion.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
27/Feb/06, 4:48 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
ashmosh314 Profile
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:

Why should we bother destroying Satan when he does not exist outside of Biblical references?



If you believe that the Bible is correct and study the encoded formulas as they reveal what is hidden and concealed... you would see that there is nothing outside of Biblical references.

For example: All of sciences discoveries so far were already being revelated by the ancient sages 2000 years ago, over 600 prophecies have come pass that were predicted in the Bible, and all the religions are even found in the Bible.

Satan is the totality of negative energy in the universe, and that energy also exists inside of us... so what ever we call him/her/it... it is there regardless. If we cannot destroy our carnal and perverse nature within our selves then how can we expect to fix the external world that we experience?

27/Feb/06, 18:28 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:
I think the big context we all need to understand is that the Bible is a book, written by man, and changed over time. Divine word of God? You might argue that, but if so, how come pretty much everything in there applies to the general way of life of THAT particular region? It only mentions animals in that region, it only talks about those particular places, and nowhere does it even hint about the secrets of the lands outside of the Biblical scope, for instance the Far East, South America, and the Arctic Circle. Why does not God in all his wisdom warn his people from consuming the flesh of the fugu, whereas he explicitly warns them away from pork and shrimp?



Science proves that everything in this universe is made of light and composed of sound, meaning that everything exists on a particular vibration. Holy Books, for example the Bible, have been tested under scientific experiments and the vibration of these books operate on high vibration multiple plane quantum partical consiousness... basically saying that these holy books... namely the Bible is more than just a book. There is something very powerful within the words and meanings.

The Torah was not written by Man. It was given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. If you studied it in depth you would see that there is no way that any human being wrote that. The rest of the Bible, was written by men... but you have to remember that EVERYTHING is GOD. THere is nothing that God isnt. So when it is said "Divinely INspired Word of God" it means that it was direct revelation from God to a soul that revelated the Divine Message.

The Bible never changed over time. It was always the same. The English translations are what changed the Bible. But the original texts were never altered.

That isnt true about what you said about only animals being mentioned in that region... it mentions every single people, places, animals, events, future events and things all over the Bible. But you have to study Tekach and Pardes in order to understand how to decypher and decode the infinite layers of the Bible. Once you do this, you will have no doubt in your mind that the Bible is in fact true. And once you do that... you willsee how amazing God's infinite wisdom really is. Its all in there... you just have to look with an open mind and an open heart and the Spirit will show you.


Ahlyssah wrote:
As for how it seems to you:

Exodus 21:7--- "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."



There was an ancient sage named Maimonides who was best known as the Rambam. He was a rabbi, sage, legal expert and philosopher who wrote a commentary on the Mishnah, which is the Halachah (rules and guidelines) of Jewish law according to Torah. The Mishnah is considered to be one the sacred text books on the law of Torah. He studied the wisdom passed down from generations since Moses.

In his works, the Rambam revelated the Sedarim. The Sedarim are six different orders which explains the sequence of the Mishnah by finding parallels between the order of the Sedarim and several passages from the Torah. This is part of the study of Tekach and Pardes. This is how what the Bible seems to say usually doesnt mean that at all and requires an in depth decoding to fully revelate what God meant in the particular passage.

Each of these are called a Seder (order). The first section is called Seder Zera'im (seeds, agriculture), the second Seder Mo'ed (appointed times), the third Seder Nashim (men/women), the fourth Seder Nezikin (damages), the fifth Seder Kodashim (holy things), and the sixth Seder Tohorot (purities).

So in Exodus 21:7, what is meant there is nothing what it seems to mean. There are infinite layers here... but one easy to understand meaning is this... if a man betrays his daughter by giving her away to be subservient to another for his personal gain then he has condemned himself to become a manservant as well and so she will not be punished the way the he or people like him will be punished. This is just one halachah regarding this passage.


Ahlyssah wrote:
Exodus 21:8--- "If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. "
The words "sell" and "master" don't really leave much room for compromise. She is no longer her father's daughter; she is the property of another man. As for "betrothed her to himself," the common interpretation of this is that the woman is a concubine. That is open to debate, but not very much in my opinion.



What that passage is saying there is that if the woman who was given away to be a servant does not please her master, it wil not be on her head... and so the master must redeem her for her innocence... and he will be punished or judged for he betrayed her into bondage not true betrothal, nor the master or the father will be redeemed and so they have betrayed the nation of Yisrael and God. BY what that man did, he sold her to a strange (pagan) nation by operating in the ways of the pagan (when scripture says "strange" it is referring to pagan).... by this action then he has no power at all because he has betrayed the woman, Yisrael and God.

See... what it seems like it means is not at all what it means. The debate is only when one hasnt sought out the Bible's true meaning on a deeper sense and only accepts its appearance rather than its indepth encoded meanings. Doesnt mean the person is bad... it just means they havent gotten there yet.

 This is why the Bible says to read it over and over... and to pray for the Holy Spirit to show you what it really means... and it says to study it with a fine tooth comb... or the true meaning will not be known.

In order to comprehend the BIble... one must study Tekach and Pardes.



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ashmosh314, 27/Feb/06, 19:44
27/Feb/06, 19:41 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?


First of all, I was saying that the second passage I gave you is PROOF that the Bible allows slave trading. The fact that she calls him "master" is the point I wanted you to see. Then again, is that not true of ALL women in the Bible? Sorry, dude, but I have to crack down on you here:

Thanks to the Judeo-Christian religion, women were seen as property for ages. Is that what God wanted, since He supposedly wrote the Bible? I wouldn't think so, since just several thousand miles northwest of the Middle East, in the Cletic regions, most women enjoyed virtual equality with men, and were even so esteemed that they were permitted to join in the hunt, something exclusively for men after the Hebrews dominated the area. Native American women were treated as virtual equals, and in fact the ruling family was passed down on the maternal side.

So, if God hates women, which we must assume he does if we read his so-called "inspired law", how come he allowed them so much freedom in other societies? Come to think of it, why were there any "strange" people at all?! What, does he not CARE about those not under his "Good" list? I'm gonna say it right now: if we take the Bible, and all within, as God's words, then I think Satan is truly God. Yeah, you're right: it is all about perspective. I perceive God, as he is described in that book of horrors, to be little more than a spoiled brat who throws temper tantrums for attention. The only difference is, he typically massacres people, whereas a brat would just pout. Okay, that was mean, but so was killing the first-born males in Egypt.



ashmosh314 wrote:

Holy Books, for example the Bible, have been tested under scientific experiments and the vibration of these books operate on high vibration multiple plane quantum partical consiousness... basically saying that these holy books... namely the Bible is more than just a book. There is something very powerful within the words and meanings.



Oh, give me a BREAK. You can find the exact same results in candles, athames, or chalices. It's not the BOOK, it's the energy of its READER that is being detected. All that we touch, we infuse with our energy. If the reader belives in the Bible, their belief will flow into the wood pulp and ink. Trust me, that's all it is. There's a nasty little spell I've performed when faced with unwanted attention from males: You take a plain silver pendant (I just like silver), and for an hour every night for seven days, concentrate on negative things, things that make you angry or worked up. Focus on one person and visualize a ray of dark energy emanating from the pendant and pushing the image of the person away. Wear the necklace in this person's presence when the prep work is done. Everytime I've tried this, whenever the guy tried to hit on me, he'd seem very uncomfortable and a little flustered. I wasn't acting any differently; I did this spell because the fact of the matter is I'm too nice to just say "F*** off." But it worked, with a ten dollar piece of jewelry and my personal energy. And I'm not even that practiced of a witch. Sooooo, find a better arguement for the validity of the Bible.

As for the so-called prophecies that have come true, which ones? Please, give us all the details. I've read prophecies before, and you know what I've found? Any one of those "foresights" could apply to an infinite number of events throughout history. The specs are so general and open-ended, that even the slightest change in your tone of voice could change the "event" from the stock market crash to a baseball breaking your neighbors window. It all depends on what the interpreter wants you to think.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
27/Feb/06, 21:36 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?


If you wont hear the truth I cant tell you.

The Bible is not saying what you are saying it is saying... but that is what you are interpreting or perceiving it to say so you are not wrong... you just havent reached the point in which your understanding it with the right lens... so the only thing I can say is that you are only seeing it from one perspective and the only way you will see more is if you increase perspective.

I have explained myself pretty clearly.

One thing though... the results for testing the vibration of different objects are all different. So the books will have different results than other things. Yes... our interaction cahnges the energy... however everything has its own designated vibration. Science has already so many times proved so many things about God and religions... but I cant force you to accept it.

But it doesnt matter. We can agree to disagree...

If you refuse to try to view from other angles then you wont see any other perspective than the one you are viewing from.

I can only pray that you do.

The only thing I can say is to look down other avenues... try other ways... try other approaches... and maybe your spirit will show you more than you are seeing now.




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ashmosh314, 28/Feb/06, 0:02
27/Feb/06, 23:57 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



That is not exactly entirely correct.

Christ said that we can not get to heaven by our good works alone. Not that faith alone would save us... but without elevation of the soul one cannot elevate by good works by itself.

It is our works and faith together that carry us into enlightenment... and thus being saved.



Actually the Bible does not support you position. Works have no bearing as far as getting into heavon is concerned. What you will find however is that once you get to heaven you will be rewarded according to your works.

This one of the things that sets Christianity from all other religions.

You guys have brought up many oints that I will address as soon as I have time


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Johanis, 28/Feb/06, 8:57
28/Feb/06, 8:48 Link to this post PM 
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Johanis wrote:
Actually the Bible does not support you position. Works have no bearing as far as getting into heavon is concerned. What you will find however is that once you get to heaven you will be rewarded according to your works.

This one of the things that sets Christianity from all other religions.

You guys have brought up many oints that I will address as soon as I have time



Christ said our good works have no bearing without faith.
If we have faith but dont perform works of good deeds and elevation of the soul then what would be the point? IF that were the case we could have have faith but do evil things all day long.

It must be both.

28/Feb/06, 17:38 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



ashmosh314 wrote:

The Bible is not saying what you are saying it is saying... but that is what you are interpreting or perceiving it to say so you are not wrong... you just havent reached the point in which your understanding it with the right lens... so the only thing I can say is that you are only seeing it from one perspective and the only way you will see more is if you increase perspective.



How can that be true and false at the same time? After all, is not God all-powerful and all-knowing? If he wanted mankind to follow a set of guidlines, he would have set down those guidelines in the freaking Himalayas, in every language known to man, including Braile. Ambiguity, or just the common Christians trying to pull a Pope Gregory I in an attempt to bring back some of the people they scared away? It just doesn't make SENSE! And even if God doesn't hate women, the words in the Bible were interpreted to mean that he does. Why hasn't he slapped the Pope and said, "No, you fool, THIS is what I mean!"?

And you never answered my question: how come the word of God never touched anyone else? Why were the Hopis, Celts, and Incas ignorant of his "holy word"? You either have to accept the fact that Christianity is a cultural aspect of the ancient Mediterranean areas, or that the Holy Lord is a bigot who plays favoritism. Or, you could say that introducing the world of God ONLY to that region was part of God's plan . . . but then you'd have to accept that the mountains of bloodshed and warfare caused during the Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, Crusades, and other periods of conquest were PART of that plan, and thus God is not the "loving father" we want to believe in. You can't have it both ways, you just can't. The truth is not democratic: there is only one, without compromise. You cannot know what it is, and neither can I. I DO know what Christianity is about, and frankly I don't see how that can be disputed.

And, noooooooooo, science has NEVER proven ANYTHING concerning God. Name one thing, just ONE, that is in favor of religion and/or God. ONE. Because last time I checked, such things were beyond the capacity of human testing.

And just remember: the Bible is a BOOK. If it contains so much holy power, if it's so important, then how did anyone have God in the days before the printing press? Come on, ashmosh: it's just a book, with words inside that people consider important. It's not God himself, and likely isn't even his words (again, if it were, then how come they only apply to the Mediterranean area?).

Of course, you can't understand. You're deep in the trap, my friend, very deep indeed.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
1/Mar/06, 2:41 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:
How can that be true and false at the same time? After all, is not God all-powerful and all-knowing? If he wanted mankind to follow a set of guidlines, he would have set down those guidelines in the freaking Himalayas, in every language known to man, including Braile. Ambiguity, or just the common Christians trying to pull a Pope Gregory I in an attempt to bring back some of the people they scared away? It just doesn't make SENSE! And even if God doesn't hate women, the words in the Bible were interpreted to mean that he does. Why hasn't he slapped the Pope and said, "No, you fool, THIS is what I mean!"?



What I mean is this. Perspective. There are two ways to go. The perspective that leads one to the source of distortion. Or. The perspective that leads one to the source of creation. So... its all part of the truth...the truth and the perversion of truth... however it is perspective that enables one to advance or regress. No one is wrong... but it all depends on where the person is in their understanding. Eventually they will travel until they see better.

I will restate what I have said earlier about this.
A child would look at a glass of water and realize that it is a glass with water in it. An adult would look at the same glass and realize that a glass is made from sand and that the water is essential for nurishment. A scientist would look at the same glass and realize the microscopic elements that make the glass and water. So everyone is looking at the same thing... its just a matter of perspective.

Yes God is omnicient and omnipotent. God has let Creation find its way to Him. God reveals Himself in ways that creation can comprehend... so He has appeared to many different people in different ways according to their perspective. If one cannot percieve Him, He cannot be known beyond one's perspective. God didnt create robots...

And FYI... God did set down those guidelines in the "freaking" (as you so worded it) Himalayas, in every language known to man, including Braile. HE DID THAT ALREADY.... lol.

It doesnt make sense to you because you are refusing to look... or even try. Let me ask you this... do you know if advanced calculus quantum mechanics makes sense? If you dont know a significant amount of advanced calculus quantum mechanics or have not studied it thoroughly then you are not in a position to say that it doesnt make sense. The same is with this topic. If you are going to make claims then you should know about what you are talking about. You should study it well and know it before you can say its a farse or not. Otherwise, there is no way you can make credible claim.

All Im saying is that you should increase your perspective, learn more, meditate on it, study it, contemplate, ponder on what you are absorbing. Then make a decision. Because just a tiny bit of knowledge without a firm grasp is a dangerous.

BTW... that passage you say it says God hates women... it does not say that at all. There is no place that it says that. You are completely misreading it.


Ahlyssah wrote:
And you never answered my question: how come the word of God never touched anyone else? Why were the Hopis, Celts, and Incas ignorant of his "holy word"? You either have to accept the fact that Christianity is a cultural aspect of the ancient Mediterranean areas, or that the Holy Lord is a bigot who plays favoritism. Or, you could say that introducing the world of God ONLY to that region was part of God's plan . . . but then you'd have to accept that the mountains of bloodshed and warfare caused during the Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, Crusades, and other periods of conquest were PART of that plan, and thus God is not the "loving father" we want to believe in. You can't have it both ways, you just can't. The truth is not democratic: there is only one, without compromise. You cannot know what it is, and neither can I. I DO know what Christianity is about, and frankly I don't see how that can be disputed.



Oh my.... I would hate to be around you if you had a gun. Lol... you seem to be getting angrier and angrier. Relax dude. This is not productive. Stop attacking and scrutinizing and lets discuss, debate, share and build.

First off... the Bible explains that the Word of God is also inside everyone. The holy books are the fabric that makes us. These holy books are the blue prints of God's creation... and they are the aid to re-remember what we already know deep inside of us. But its up to us to seek Him out.

Remember EVERYTHING IS IN THE TORAH... so all people, cultures, races, places, things, ideas, concepts, sciences, perspectives, religions, books you name it is concealed and revealed in the Torah. The Torah is the all encompassing encoded formula that contains all the holy books from the Bagivadgita(Hindu), the Vedas(HIndu), Book of the Dead(Egypt), Tibetan Book of the Dead(Buddhist), Quran(Islam).. you name the book its concealed and revealed in the Torah. God has not excluded anyone as you so fiercely accuse.

The Word of God has touched all people, all of creation.
The different civilizations like the Celts, the Mayans, Aztecz, Incas, etc etc etc... all recieved the Word of God. They saw God from their perspective... God revealed Himself in way that they could comprehend.

If you notice, monotheism developed quite recently... only about 4,000 years of monotheistic perspective as a totality of a many people or culture. Why? Because the totality of the collective consiousness of mankind was able to percieve God with a much clearer perspective. God revealed Himself accordingly.

When a father speaks to his new born baby... he has to speak to them a way the baby can comprehend, as the babby becomes a child... the father adapts to the way he speaks to the child according the the child's comprehension... as the child becomes a teen, the father again adapts accordingly. The same is with God. God has revealed Himself accordingly to Creation's perspective.

The wars and bloodeshed are part of the plan because all the souls of all the universe decided these paths. All of these things as I talked about in other posts with you are the result of the plan that God and all of the souls did together. So your soul chose this my friend... this is what the Bible teaches. You did this as well I did this as well as God did this. So dont blame God for Creation's inability to co-exist. God didnt create robots... He gave us all Free Will to choose.

God's plan will eventually surmount to all of Creation realizing the clearer perspective of the Word... and thus our decision to earn our way back to God.

You seem to be more of a biggot than who you are accusing of being. You're pointing fingers and judging blindly. Christ said "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." This is a classic case in which that quote applies.

God Our Father does love us... its about time we all started loving Him and our neighbor as ourselves.... otherwise its gonna be a lot longer of a hard road to reach the promised land.


Ahlyssah wrote:
And, noooooooooo, science has NEVER proven ANYTHING concerning God. Name one thing, just ONE, that is in favor of religion and/or God. ONE. Because last time I checked, such things were beyond the capacity of human testing.



Ohh yes it has. It has most certainly proved much. Science is at the point where the only answer is God. You need to do more research.

OK... I'll name couple things as there is a ton of proof that God exists...

Every single particle of this universe possesses a concsiousness and is interconnected to a bigger consiousness.... meaning that since everything is interconnected then the absolute ultimate consiousness is the totality of the universe (just like our bodies with minds and emotions). There is a unified consiousness that consists of the entire universe... what would you say something that big and infinite is? hmm... God? THis very thing was proven in the Bible by the ancient and modern sages.

Science has proven that every single particle of solid, liquid, gas or empty space is made of the same thing which is called quarks. Now, these particles are literally strands of information, bits of processes "thought." THis not only proves that absolutely everything possesses concisousness but it proves that absolutely everything is actually thinking... everything is made of thought. If everything is a thought on the sub-atomic level, then who's thought is it on the macrocosmic level? hmm... God.
THis very thing was proven in the Bible by the ancient and modern sages.

Science has proven that these "thoughts", our thoughts, concepts, ideas, time, emotions, feelings, intuitions, are all intangible. If there are clear indications that there are things that exist that are intangible... then it proves right there that there is something behind it all driving the vehicle. Again, the modern and ancients sages were talking about this thousands of years ago becuase it is in the Bible.

Another thing... the ancient sages were explaining how the Torah reveals the Big Bang, quantum physics, string theory and even evolution hundreds and hundreds of years prior to modern science even discovering these things. Its all in the BIBle.

These facts are all documented in history... but you wouldnt know it like many others simply because you believe and cling to the disinformation given in grade school and in the media.


Ahlyssah wrote:
And just remember: the Bible is a BOOK. If it contains so much holy power, if it's so important, then how did anyone have God in the days before the printing press? Come on, ashmosh: it's just a book, with words inside that people consider important. It's not God himself, and likely isn't even his words (again, if it were, then how come they only apply to the Mediterranean area?).



The Bible is a collection of books. That is what the word "bible" means. On the deeper layered level there is a word called Notarikon... which refers to the aproach of decyphering acronyms and forming them. THe word Bible also is an acronym for ""Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.""

Again God revealed Himself in ways that Creation could comprehend. Again... go back to what I said about the father and his new born baby. Can a baby read? NO. But as the child gets older... the father can then teach the child how to read and write and eventually the child will be able to comprehend.

Lol... the first book was given to Adam, the first man. It is called Sefer HaRaziel. After the fall of the Universe, God revealed Himself in many ways due to the fall. He had to prostrate His essence so as to address and relate to Creation. People had God every which way. Just like the new born baby had its father before the baby could read or write.

The Torah was not written by man, it was written by GOd Himself... Study it well and you will see. The rest of the Bible was written by man because of revelation. If you cant percieve that revelation is possible then you will never understand how God is everything and how God not only acts indpendently of Creation but He actually also acts through Creation...

And the Bible does not only apply to the Mediterranean... it applies to the whole universe.

You seriously need to go and do your homework because not only do your statements have huge holes of flawed information, but you come across a little offensive. I assure you that you have not offended me, but I can see totally how you may offend others by the way you come across.


Ahlyssah wrote:
Of course, you can't understand. You're deep in the trap, my friend, very deep indeed.



Wow... what I understand my friend, is that its the other way around. That is for sure indeed.


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ashmosh314, 1/Mar/06, 19:11
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Re: Who should get into heaven?


...truthfully I can see where your coming from Ashmosh...but I can also see Ahlyssah's point and I tend to gravitate more that way...I can't understand why God didn't intervene in mans life, a parent doesn't just have a baby and leave it on its own, they raise it and teach it and then when they feel its old enough they let it go off on its own.

If your comparing God to a father, I think God makes a pretty lousy father.

As for quantam physics I am not an expert it, but there are experts who can explain it that just proves it has some sort of validity. A persons opinion is not correct simply because he believes it so it is correct if it can be publicly verified. I'm not attacking your beliefs, when this comes to religious belief, it becomes more complicated, because what one person sees as purely physics another can see as the work of God. Um sorry I lost my train of thought....I think I had something good but I dunno...

And another thing I don't understand is why all the religons of the world are so different from each other, if we all come from one God how does our belief systems vary so widely from one God and creator to many Gods and many different creators(some not completely divine). In greek mythology man was created by Prometheus who was a Titan or demi-god depending on the source you get.

And what about a rock, does a rock have a consiousness, and what keeps all these seperate consiousness' seperate? what prevents them from just melding together and becomeing one giant consiousness and as such one entity? I don't believe that we're all thoughts the world seems extrodinarily physical to me and not at all like and intangable thought.

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Re: Who should get into heaven?



ashmosh314 wrote:

BTW... that passage you say it says God hates women... it does not say that at all. There is no place that it says that. You are completely misreading it.



Then pretty much every one from the time of Christ's death to about the 1800s has misread it as well.

As for science proving God, according to Dr. Eugenie C. Scott, God is outside of scientific reasoning. It's just not something that can be measured. And honestly, I'd rather believe a scientist who does not seem to have any religious bias. She's cool in person! emoticon Besides, I know already that everything is made of the same stuff. Just because we perceive it to be a "thought" it doesn't mean it's God. You have NO way of proving that whatsoever. It just seems like a reasonable explanation, to you. And of course, you have to blame education as well. Oh, those blasted teachers! How dare they corrupt our children with tales of plant respiration! Me, I'm still waiting for more confirmation as to when Yellowstone is going to pop. I think that concerns us all a little more than just bashing religious and educational systems.

And you know, we're both barking at each other with the same arguement it's always been: science versus religion. Maybe YOU see God in everything, but here's a newsflash: so do I. The only difference is that you still want to believe that you are special, and not just another random life form. I don't see "god" as an actual being, but the arrogance of many people requires that God be an entity, a thinking creature. It doesn't have to be like that to be godly. And of course, I'm right and wrong again. God can take different forms, it if pleases it. However, if we assume that God is a thinking being, we have to accept that there is only one way to interpret his laws.

I have a friend who follows Lilith, and he believes that God is actually Yahweh, and is the Devil. He believes strongly, from what Lilith has told him, that Yahweh broke the languages at the Tower of Bable because he realized that if all of mankind came together, there would be nothing we could not be capable of. That threatened him, so he caused everybody to split up, and even went so far as to provoke conflicts and holy wars to keep us fighting, so that we would be forever divided. I'm starting to wonder if that isn't the case, because you've actually backed that theory up in your postings.

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Re: Who should get into heaven?



fantasyturtle8187 wrote:
...truthfully I can see where your coming from Ashmosh...but I can also see Ahlyssah's point and I tend to gravitate more that way...I can't understand why God didn't intervene in mans life, a parent doesn't just have a baby and leave it on its own, they raise it and teach it and then when they feel its old enough they let it go off on its own..



God has intervened in all of creation's life since creation was created. There has never been a second or moment that God has not intervened. He is the lifeforce that enables us to exist.

Remember God is everything. It is in our trials and tribulations, growing pains, learning, understanding,
happiness, sadness, prosperity, down falls, fall outs, growing, attainments, life lessons and experiences etc. that God has carried us, taught us, nurtured us, and raised us just like a father.

God has never left us on our own. Remember God is everything... and not only is He out there... but He is inside of you, me, and all of creation. Not only does God act through the external world, but He also acts through the internal world. He is intervening inside you.

It is our experiences that makes us who we are. The bad and the good. We are living mirracles of God. We are living in the impossibility made possible.

God never leaves us on our own... but He wont always show Himself and that is merely because certain of His children refuse to listen and hear His words, and refuse to see and feel His presence. This comes down to really wanting to see and know with an open mind, open and heart and the willing to increase perspective and consiousness.


fantasyturtle8187 wrote:
If your comparing God to a father, I think God makes a pretty lousy father.



I think you are looking from a rather bleek perspective. Stop thinking that God has to show His face and literally speak to you with a long white beard, white robe and a bolt of lightning (Im not saying you do persay... but Im just generalizing to get to my point). Stop thinking that God is going to split the Sea for you to know He is there. Start looking at everything in your life as God's teaching and helping hand. God is formless, yet He takes infinite forms within Himself. And the same is Him with in you. There is no place that He isnt, but He will hide from you if you cant percieve Him. That is why perspective is so important.

God is the greatest and wisest Father. But you have to realize that all the souls were there before the advent of Creation and they all wanted to understand apreciation. All the souls chose these paths individually. YOu did it, I did it.. we all did it. God's children wanted to earn the right to be in paradise. All the souls wanted to experience, travel, learn, feel, attain, see, know, elevate, understand, apreciate and prove themselves worthy.

So dont blame God for this... we all did this with Him. It was a collective effort. So if you're gonna say God is a lousy father, then you must say that all of His creation are lousy children. BUt that isnt the case at all.

Here is an analogy... a baseball player has the potential to be a great superstar. But God places His hand in everytime the baseball player hits the ball in a game, so everytime the baseball player hits a home run. But it is God that is making the baseball player hit the home run everytime. In the beginning it seems great for the baseball player, but over time he realizes that he has not really earned the success and fame. He hasnt learned anything, nor has he attained his potential skills nor has he experienced any growth or understanding. The baseball player couldnt comprehend apreciation. This is called Bread of Shame. If God spoon feeds us like spoiled brats then we will never really get anywhere.


fantasyturtle8187 wrote:
As for quantam physics I am not an expert it, but there are experts who can explain it that just proves it has some sort of validity. A persons opinion is not correct simply because he believes it so it is correct if it can be publicly verified. I'm not attacking your beliefs, when this comes to religious belief, it becomes more complicated, because what one person sees as purely physics another can see as the work of God. Um sorry I lost my train of thought....I think I had something good but I dunno...



You misunderstood what I meant. I was not saying that quantum physics makes one see God... I was saying that the ancient sages of the Torah were talking about quantum physics before modern science discovered it. And they found it in the Torah. Even the String Theory, the Big Bang, Evolution and other scientific findings were already being revealed in the Torah long before modern science ever came across them.

The fact that these things were being revealed hundreds of years prior to modern science is what is amazing that these things all came from the Torah.

Here is a bit of trivial information that most people do not know... Albert Einstein studied Torah and was fascinated by its power... part of his discovery of his famous theory of relativity was found by decoding a passage in the Book of Exodus.


fantasyturtle8187 wrote:
And another thing I don't understand is why all the religons of the world are so different from each other, if we all come from one God how does our belief systems vary so widely from one God and creator to many Gods and many different creators(some not completely divine). In greek mythology man was created by Prometheus who was a Titan or demi-god depending on the source you get..



Then you should ask yourself why is all of creation so different from eachother? Why are races and cultures and people so different? As I explained earlier, God reveals Himself in ways that creation can comprehend. God reveals Himself according to the perspective of creation. Culture, experiences and lives can cause a molding of perspective. So the different people from all over the different regions of the world will have different experiences of God due to the fact that their perspectives are different.


fantasyturtle8187 wrote:
And what about a rock, does a rock have a consiousness, and what keeps all these seperate consiousness' seperate? what prevents them from just melding together and becomeing one giant consiousness and as such one entity? I don't believe that we're all thoughts the world seems extrodinarily physical to me and not at all like and intangable thought.



As I explained earlier (I dont know if you read it or not maybe you should go back and re-read it) but I had explained that absolutely everything is made of consciousness. This is proven by science.

Every single thing in the universe is made of Light and composed of sound. Light is composed of sound and sound is made of Light. See, everything in the universe is made of these sub-atomic particles (light/sound).

These are particles of existence which are strands or bits of information... these bits of information are actually particles of living consciousness. Everything is alive because every particle is consciously living in its particular state of existence. So these particles of consciousness are actually thinking. So we end up that everything is based on a "thought."

Everything solid, liquid or empty space is made of this same stuff. This is precisely how our cells in our bodies operate without our own voluntary authority. This is how our organs and functions work. The cells are composed and made of these sub-atomic particles and are consciously thinking.

Just as our minds possess intangible qualities such as thoughts, ideas, concepts and emotions... all of these sub-atomic particles do as well.We cannot touch or hold thoughts or emotions we can only feel them and know them. Ever wonder what thoughts are made of? Science cannot go any furthur without the realization of God. This is where modern science has ended up today.

So yes... a rock does possess a consciousness. What do you think makes up the object of a rock? It made of elements, cells and particles just like everything else. What keeps all these seperate consciousness seperate is the level in which these consciousness are experiencing reality to be reality. So eadch particle of consiousness percieves reality by their experience of what is real and so they are that which is.

See, reality only exists in the mind. What we believe reality to be is based on our experience and perception of what is real. What ever you feel or experience to be physical is still your perception of it being real. It is always our own experience and perception of reality being real. It is always an internal experience of what we see the external world to be. This is what seperates different levels of consciousness. The same way we percieve reality, so does everything else.

But while they are seperate... they are all interconnnected. It is proven that everything is made of the same thing, and that everything is interconnected. Everything effects everything else (our cells effect our bodies, the plants effect the air, the moon effects the earth and our bodies, etc etc etc).

Being that everything comes down to "thoughts," that everything is connected and that the universe is just like the body (with cells that operate on their own independant of our voluntary control) science has found that that there is in fact One Mind of the physical body of the universe. This One giant consiousness is the composition and make up everything and nothing.... One great big gigantic coniousness, that is actually thinking. This is God.

So it already is one big giant consciousness.
You may not believe it, but science has already proved this to be actual fact.

So who is it that is thinking on the macrocosmic level? If on the sub-atomic level eevrything is thinking... then who is it that is thinking? I believe it is God that has thought this whole thing up... and because of His level of consciousness... we are able to exist.




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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:
Then pretty much every one from the time of Christ's death to about the 1800s has misread it as well.



No it was that they were not adhering to what the Bible says. It wasnt that they were misreading it... it was that they were ignoring it yet still calling themselves Christians. These types of people exist today... people that say that they are Christian... yet they are racists, they cheat on their spouses, they dont follow any of the commandments... things like that. I call them casually convient Christians. Only when its convient for them to be that then they are. But this happened to all races, religions and creeds. You are only looking at a certain portion of the population of mankind that thinks and acts this way in all cultures throughout all time periods. ITs people doing this not the religion.


Ahlyssah wrote:
As for science proving God, according to Dr. Eugenie C. Scott, God is outside of scientific reasoning. It's just not something that can be measured. And honestly, I'd rather believe a scientist who does not seem to have any religious bias. She's cool in person! emoticon Besides, I know already that everything is made of the same stuff. Just because we perceive it to be a "thought" it doesn't mean it's God. You have NO way of proving that whatsoever. It just seems like a reasonable explanation, to you. And of course, you have to blame education as well. Oh, those blasted teachers! How dare they corrupt our children with tales of plant respiration! Me, I'm still waiting for more confirmation as to when Yellowstone is going to pop. I think that concerns us all a little more than just bashing religious and educational systems.



God can only be measured in the physical world... the spiritual world is another story. However the fact that there are intangible elements that are provable such as time, thoughts, emotions and things like that leave science at a loss to be able to prove anything furthur.

God is not outside of scientific reasoning... science is only part of the way and part of the puzzle. We are living in a time where you will see (mark my words) that religion and science will merge in the quest for knowledge and truth.

There are plenty scientists who never believed in any God or religion... who have stumbled on the things that are being revealed today and are astounded by the new-founded possibility of God. Science has literally hit a brick wall. I forget where I remember this statement but Ill try to quote it as accurately as possible... it goes.. "science only goes so far, and then there is God."

The fact that everything is made of "thoughts" or "consiousness"... and that everything is interconnected as a whole... and also that if everything in our body is made of billions of microscopic sub-atomic particles of consciousness yet we are a consious microcosm (human body)...... then it is not outside of reasonable thinking to say that the universe is the same at the macrocosmic level. It is not hard to conceptualize the possibility of God.

I didnt blame edjucation persay but you went with something you learned in grade school where if you research the facts about many things we learn in grade school was flawed, biased and often times fragmented. Facts are facts... it is up the individual to seek the truth. Columbus did not discover America, yet it is taught in schools. And Santa was in fact a derrived idea from the god Odin. Look it up and see for your self. ITs not a mystery to the public... its perfectly accessible information that is available on line, in libraries and at college level schools.

The problem that really calls for concern is the lack of good edjucation and a perspective that is not so limited regarding spirituality. That is the real issue here. As for issues of distaster in the world... that is written that it will happen. There is no way around it.


Ahlyssah wrote:
And you know, we're both barking at each other with the same arguement it's always been: science versus religion. Maybe YOU see God in everything, but here's a newsflash: so do I. The only difference is that you still want to believe that you are special, and not just another random life form. I don't see "god" as an actual being, but the arrogance of many people requires that God be an entity, a thinking creature. It doesn't have to be like that to be godly. And of course, I'm right and wrong again. God can take different forms, it if pleases it. However, if we assume that God is a thinking being, we have to accept that there is only one way to interpret his laws.



Im not barking with you... it seemed like you were jumping down my throat with a bunch assumptions and judgemental statements that were really unwarranted especially since you dont know me to know these things you were claiming my views were.

Im not saying you have to believe what Im saying or believe what I believe. Im saying you shouldnt make your decision until you have searched it out through and through... leaving no stone unturned. Really seek... and really try to find out. YOu never know what you may end up coming up with. All Im saying is dont shoot something out of the sky until you have gotten a firm grasp on all of it. Science, religion, philosophy... perspective.... etc.

I dont believe Im special. See this is what Im talking about. When did I ever say that I was better than you or anyone else? AGain you are casting judgement on me.

I believe that all of Creation is special. I believe that God loves all of Creation equally. To God, all is special.

God is not a creature. He cannot be defined for He is beyond our comprehension other than what we can percieve of Him. And you are right, God is formless yet can take infinite forms and is changeless yet ever changing. However... there are infinite ways of interpeting His laws... for all perspectives (of creation) are in Him. But the clearest or ultimate perspective is God's... because He is the ultimate Being. God is seeing the ultimate perspective because He knows all the infinite perspectives as One Absolute Perspective.


Ahlyssah wrote:
I have a friend who follows Lilith, and he believes that God is actually Yahweh, and is the Devil. He believes strongly, from what Lilith has told him, that Yahweh broke the languages at the Tower of Bable because he realized that if all of mankind came together, there would be nothing we could not be capable of. That threatened him, so he caused everybody to split up, and even went so far as to provoke conflicts and holy wars to keep us fighting, so that we would be forever divided.



That is interesting... I never heard of it in that context. Lillith was a demon according to scriptures... I never heard of this.

According to scripture, YHWH (Yahweh) is God and Satan is merely a part inside of God. Satan is the totality of evil and negative energy and is headed by the front man Heylel (Lucifer) or also known as the devil. But is subservient to God.

Nothing can threaten YHWH. The reason for the Tower being destroyed was because of the perspective of Nimrod's Empire and his reasoning behind building the Tower. Nimrod's perspective was evil. And this is why God destroyed it... so that Nimrod would not be able to cause a tremendous amount of damage to creation.

Yahweh wants Creation to reach Him... He wants His children to attain the highest levels of wisdom, to grow and become holy... Yahweh wants mankind and all of creation to come together... that was not why He destroyed the Temple. Nimrod had evil intentions. Babylon was the perversion of truth at that time.

The Torah and the rest of the BIble and the other holy books are how we do this and reach the truth the proper way. That is how mankind coming together can be capable of anything and everything . But this will happen when Christ returns. (BTW we will never be able to over throw God)

The wars, seperation and conflicts and division was mankind's doing, and God's for the plan. He gave us the choice to follow His commands... and everytime Yisrael did follow them... God blessed them... everytime they didnt... they punished themselves. This was all part of Gods plan but not to keep mankind divided forever... that is not according to scripture.


Ahlyssah wrote: I'm starting to wonder if that isn't the case, because you've actually backed that theory up in your postings.



What did you mean that I backed up that theory? Your friend's theory? Im not sure which you meant.






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Re: Who should get into heaven?



ashmosh314 wrote:

No it was that they were not adhering to what the Bible says. It wasnt that they were misreading it... it was that they were ignoring it yet still calling themselves Christians. These types of people exist today... people that say that they are Christian... yet they are racists, they cheat on their spouses, they dont follow any of the commandments... things like that. I call them casually convient Christians. Only when its convient for them to be that then they are. But this happened to all races, religions and creeds. You are only looking at a certain portion of the population of mankind that thinks and acts this way in all cultures throughout all time periods. ITs people doing this not the religion.



This is one thing which we can agree on. I get tired of people ranting over the teaching of evolution in schools, or demanding that we leave that monument of the Ten Commandments in that ol' courthouse, then go home to get ready to pick up some random chick at the bar. Then you've got people singing praises to the lord, who then say we should assassinate world leaders we don't like.



God can only be measured in the physical world... the spiritual world is another story. However the fact that there are intangible elements that are provable such as time, thoughts, emotions and things like that leave science at a loss to be able to prove anything furthur.

God is not outside of scientific reasoning... science is only part of the way and part of the puzzle. We are living in a time where you will see (mark my words) that religion and science will merge in the quest for knowledge and truth.

There are plenty scientists who never believed in any God or religion... who have stumbled on the things that are being revealed today and are astounded by the new-founded possibility of God. Science has literally hit a brick wall. I forget where I remember this statement but Ill try to quote it as accurately as possible... it goes.. "science only goes so far, and then there is God."



That doesn't really say anything to me. It's just another example of people being boggled out of their minds when they come across a new innovation or tidbit of knowledge. Of course everyone is freaked out: nobody imagined such things could be possible. But then again, they said that about the eye, and the folding of proteins. It's not necessarily God, it's just new. It's just a major change. Could it be God? Certainly, but I think it's a little hasty to make that kind of a leap so soon. You have to keep in mind that there is A LOT of knowledge out there to be had, most of it previously unconceived. Yeah, it's unlike anything we've ever encountered before. So? We've been through bigger discoveries than this. I'm surprised that we didn't stop at the splitting of the atom.

And if science and religion DO collide, then God help us all, because those are just two disciplines that do NOT get along. By it's very nature religion is rigid and unchanging. Is that what God wants, probably not, but that's what the followers want, and they're the ones running this show.


The fact that everything is made of "thoughts" or "consiousness"... and that everything is interconnected as a whole... and also that if everything in our body is made of billions of microscopic sub-atomic particles of consciousness yet we are a consious microcosm (human body)...... then it is not outside of reasonable thinking to say that the universe is the same at the macrocosmic level. It is not hard to conceptualize the possibility of God.



Actually, you've misinterpreted the literiture. Quarks are not actual thoughts; they are the stuff that thoughts are made of. You know, though, the idea that everything is comprised of God sounds rather animistic. Yet, animism is beaten by religions who claim that it "is Satanism in disguise" or whatever the clever catchphrase the religious right are using these days. Kinda funny, that if this were true, then it was the dirty heathens who had it right all along! That would be hysterical.


I didnt blame edjucation persay but you went with something you learned in grade school where if you research the facts about many things we learn in grade school was flawed, biased and often times fragmented. Facts are facts... it is up the individual to seek the truth. Columbus did not discover America, yet it is taught in schools. And Santa was in fact a derrived idea from the god Odin. Look it up and see for your self. ITs not a mystery to the public... its perfectly accessible information that is available on line, in libraries and at college level schools.

The problem that really calls for concern is the lack of good edjucation and a perspective that is not so limited regarding spirituality. That is the real issue here. As for issues of distaster in the world... that is written that it will happen. There is no way around it.



If you want to reduce the limits regarding spirituality, then yell at preachers and the President, because they are the ones that seem so exuberant over forcing everybody into a far-right religious lifestyle. Personally, stuff like this should be left to the parents. Of course, I bit myself there, because part of the problem is that too many people have an intolerant way of life, which is passed onto their kids. There's nothing we can do about it, except hope the kids go into a rebellious stage.


Im not barking with you... it seemed like you were jumping down my throat with a bunch assumptions and judgemental statements that were really unwarranted especially since you dont know me to know these things you were claiming my views were.



Oh, yes you are. You are just not being quite as loud as I am. And "barking" is just a metaphor, even if I take it literally sometimes. In other words, we're just having the same ol' discussion that has been circulating since the days of Brown v. Board of Education. A religious point of view versus a scientific point of view. That's all I meant.


Im not saying you have to believe what Im saying or believe what I believe. Im saying you shouldnt make your decision until you have searched it out through and through... leaving no stone unturned. Really seek... and really try to find out. YOu never know what you may end up coming up with. All Im saying is dont shoot something out of the sky until you have gotten a firm grasp on all of it. Science, religion, philosophy... perspective.... etc.



I have. I was a Christian until eighth grade, when I started questioning the contents of the Bible and looked into the wonderful field of anthropology. I also discovered Paganism, which corresponds to my most deeply-held beliefs, and which provides more of a sense of godliness than Christianity did. The more I see what people do with Christianity, the more I wonder if it hasn't been this way all along, just a tool for mass manipulation.


I dont believe Im special. See this is what Im talking about. When did I ever say that I was better than you or anyone else? AGain you are casting judgement on me.

I believe that all of Creation is special. I believe that God loves all of Creation equally. To God, all is special.



When I said arrogance, I did not mean yours. I meant that of the Judeo-Christian faith who, in the very beginning, stressed Man's power over pretty much everything else, and cited a passage that declared we were made in the image of God. Don't you see? Christianity has a very strong pyschological hold over people, partly because it makes us feel special. Who wouldn't want to be the Almighty's special pet? We all would. That's why evolution is so harshly debated among the school systems: not because it disproves the Bible, because Genesis would not be THAT changed if it had to adhere to the assumption that everything in the Garden was created over billions of years. It's because evolution makes us just another animal, and strips us of our claim as God's little creations. Not that it has to, but enough people feel threatened by the prospect to fight even the acknowledgement of evolution. Wow, that was a tangent.


God is not a creature. He cannot be defined for He is beyond our comprehension other than what we can percieve of Him. And you are right, God is formless yet can take infinite forms and is changeless yet ever changing. However... there are infinite ways of interpeting His laws... for all perspectives (of creation) are in Him. But the clearest or ultimate perspective is God's... because He is the ultimate Being. God is seeing the ultimate perspective because He knows all the infinite perspectives as One Absolute Perspective.



If there are infinite ways of interpreting His laws, and if He can adjust himself to the times in order to provide guidance, then why all the rigidity? See, THIS is the big question I just don't get, and I feel like you dodge it every time it comes up. You keep saying that everyone on this board is wrong in their interpretations of the Bible, and yet right because every perspective is valid, then you turn around and say (and where you don't say, you imply) that there is only ONE way to interpret God's laws. Logically, that doesn't make sense. See, this is what I meant earlier when I said you want to have it both ways. And again, why did He not allow others to see his light? Why did they have to be forced by His followers? Those are the sticks in my craw (what IS a craw, anyway?).


That is interesting... I never heard of it in that context. Lillith was a demon according to scriptures... I never heard of this.

According to scripture, YHWH (Yahweh) is God and Satan is merely a part inside of God. Satan is the totality of evil and negative energy and is headed by the front man Heylel (Lucifer) or also known as the devil. But is subservient to God.

Nothing can threaten YHWH. The reason for the Tower being destroyed was because of the perspective of Nimrod's Empire and his reasoning behind building the Tower. Nimrod's perspective was evil. And this is why God destroyed it... so that Nimrod would not be able to cause a tremendous amount of damage to creation.

Yahweh wants Creation to reach Him... He wants His children to attain the highest levels of wisdom, to grow and become holy... Yahweh wants mankind and all of creation to come together... that was not why He destroyed the Temple. Nimrod had evil intentions. Babylon was the perversion of truth at that time.



In the scriptures, Lilith was the first wife of Adam who was kicked out of Eden when she refused to submit to him (another reason I have for believing that God looks upon women unfavorably). She became a demon when she started taking pleasure with the demons and giving birth to little demons. Kinda like a bad "Sci-Fi Original Movie" if you ask me.

But if Nimrod was the problem, why did God have to split everybody up? Yeah, Nimrod probably told them lies and mixed up their realities, but it says in the Bible that God will forgive those who repent, and gives second chances. These people didn't get their second chance. God didn't come down and tell them, "Look, the gesture is sweet and all, but this is not what I want." God seems to like being dramatic, and in the course, somewhat ineffective. The Ten Plagues, for instance, didn't have to go down: God could have sent an angel, or just come down and backhanded the Pharaoh. He could have appeared to Nimrod and told him that if he did not cease his activities, He would do "something drastic". You might argue that God doesn't want to get involved, but He often does, sadly leading to death and destruction when something less severe would have sufficed earlier on.





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---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: Who should get into heaven?


Wow is this getting interesting..

Okay here it goes...

No science CAN NOT and HAS NOT proven the existence of God or of any other supreme being. If God is truly all powerful, all knowing then IT CAN'T BE MEASURED. God in any religion is an intangable thing...you can't reach out and touch God any more then a person can truely understand all of Gods plans. If you could prove the existance of God then faith would no longer be necessary, it would be a fact.

Second, there is no one perception of God to define..to Hindus, Buddihists, and other "Eastern Religions" there isn't really a God... there is a universal void. This void is not necessarily a thinking entity (though in Hinduism it does take multiple forms...very complicated) it is simply a void that everything is and exists in. How can you prove the existence of nothing? Actually what version of God is science trying to prove? I would be very careful of people with an agenda....

I had more to say but I caon't think of it off hand. I'll post more later when I can remember what it was I was thinking.
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:
This is one thing which we can agree on. I get tired of people ranting over the teaching of evolution in schools, or demanding that we leave that monument of the Ten Commandments in that ol' courthouse, then go home to get ready to pick up some random chick at the bar. Then you've got people singing praises to the lord, who then say we should assassinate world leaders we don't like.



Amen.


Ahlyssah wrote:
That doesn't really say anything to me. It's just another example of people being boggled out of their minds when they come across a new innovation or tidbit of knowledge. Of course everyone is freaked out: nobody imagined such things could be possible. But then again, they said that about the eye, and the folding of proteins. It's not necessarily God, it's just new. It's just a major change. Could it be God? Certainly, but I think it's a little hasty to make that kind of a leap so soon. You have to keep in mind that there is A LOT of knowledge out there to be had, most of it previously unconceived. Yeah, it's unlike anything we've ever encountered before. So? We've been through bigger discoveries than this. I'm surprised that we didn't stop at the splitting of the atom.



Just watch and see... its gonna happen. Soon science and religion will have no choice but to join hands in the quest for the truth. You'll see. I guess this comes down to believing or not believing. The ancient sages were talking aboit this hundreds of years ago... so tell me how they knew these things before scientists did? The World of Thought is the World above this world. The sages were breaking this stuff down long before. Science has just confirmed that the world above is the world of thought which is what the sages were revealing from the Torah. Ohh believe me... I know that there is a lot of stuff to learn... but I can assure you that we can rely on the Words inner dimensions.


Ahlyssah wrote:
And if science and religion DO collide, then God help us all, because those are just two disciplines that do NOT get along. By it's very nature religion is rigid and unchanging. Is that what God wants, probably not, but that's what the followers want, and they're the ones running this show.



Its not going to be a bad thing. ITs going to rectify the negative issues that have taken place between religions and between sciences and between science and religion.
THe truth about religion is that it is infinite, and the perspectives increase the higher you climb. The same is with science. They will become really good friends. Science is just unwraveling what God created... religion is just doing the same. Science is liek a religion and religion is like a science.


Ahlyssah wrote:
Actually, you've misinterpreted the literiture. Quarks are not actual thoughts; they are the stuff that thoughts are made of. You know, though, the idea that everything is comprised of God sounds rather animistic. Yet, animism is beaten by religions who claim that it "is Satanism in disguise" or whatever the clever catchphrase the religious right are using these days. Kinda funny, that if this were true, then it was the dirty heathens who had it right all along! That would be hysterical..



Incorrect. I didnt say quarks. I studied this in depth. And there is a really good documentary you should watch about this... the scientists were giving in depth explanations, charts, diagrams and simulated models. Everything is made of thoughts, even quarks. YOu got it wrong. Im talking about the absolute end of the physical road... where scientists cannot get any furthur becuase every single particle is made of this consciousness or thought. THis is proven. I have not misunderstood.

Again... the cleare perspective shows that everything is interconnected. Animism is part of the puzzle as well and not excluded. Science has proven that everything is made of light and composed of sound... but that the final point of physical existence is "consciousness" and/or "thoughts." Its not about the dirty heathens having it right... as I said a million times but you seem to forget (lol)... everyone has it right. ITs all peices to the puzzle.


Ahlyssah wrote:
If you want to reduce the limits regarding spirituality, then yell at preachers and the President, because they are the ones that seem so exuberant over forcing everybody into a far-right religious lifestyle. Personally, stuff like this should be left to the parents. Of course, I bit myself there, because part of the problem is that too many people have an intolerant way of life, which is passed onto their kids. There's nothing we can do about it, except hope the kids go into a rebellious stage.



THis is why it is written that we should all individually seek and study... not rely on others to do it for us. Its good to learn from others especially if they are masters... however true revelation comes from the inner search and dilligent study.


Ahlyssah wrote:
Oh, yes you are. You are just not being quite as loud as I am. And "barking" is just a metaphor, even if I take it literally sometimes. In other words, we're just having the same ol' discussion that has been circulating since the days of Brown v. Board of Education. A religious point of view versus a scientific point of view. That's all I meant.



ITs all good.... the only way to reach common ground is to debate and discuss.


Ahlyssah wrote:
I have. I was a Christian until eighth grade, when I started questioning the contents of the Bible and looked into the wonderful field of anthropology. I also discovered Paganism, which corresponds to my most deeply-held beliefs, and which provides more of a sense of godliness than Christianity did. The more I see what people do with Christianity, the more I wonder if it hasn't been this way all along, just a tool for mass manipulation.



Well... you have been disuaded by established religion. Sometimes when you grasp a good understanding of certain things... when you go back to what you once knew... things are so much clearer and it all means so much more. But in order to study the Bible... you must study all the levels... unfortunately established religion only teaches fragments of the first level. But there is so much more in the deeper levels. These levels and dimensions are called Tekach and Pardes. If you try that... the truth is revealed in more ways than you can imagine.


Ahlyssah wrote:
When I said arrogance, I did not mean yours. I meant that of the Judeo-Christian faith who, in the very beginning, stressed Man's power over pretty much everything else, and cited a passage that declared we were made in the image of God. Don't you see? Christianity has a very strong pyschological hold over people, partly because it makes us feel special. Who wouldn't want to be the Almighty's special pet? We all would. That's why evolution is so harshly debated among the school systems: not because it disproves the Bible, because Genesis would not be THAT changed if it had to adhere to the assumption that everything in the Garden was created over billions of years. It's because evolution makes us just another animal, and strips us of our claim as God's little creations. Not that it has to, but enough people feel threatened by the prospect to fight even the acknowledgement of evolution. Wow, that was a tangent.



Well arrogance is not what the Bible teaches. That is an element of ego. Evolution does not disprove the Bible... the sages were talking about that long before science thought of it. Evolution is in the book of Genesis. The people who have destroyed religion by teaching limited perspectives has ruined it for many people like yourself. It is frustrating. God, according to the truth... loves all creation equally. Animals, trees, planets, air, bugs, rocks... are all equally loved by God.


Ahlyssah wrote:
If there are infinite ways of interpreting His laws, and if He can adjust himself to the times in order to provide guidance, then why all the rigidity? See, THIS is the big question I just don't get, and I feel like you dodge it every time it comes up. You keep saying that everyone on this board is wrong in their interpretations of the Bible, and yet right because every perspective is valid, then you turn around and say (and where you don't say, you imply) that there is only ONE way to interpret God's laws. Logically, that doesn't make sense. See, this is what I meant earlier when I said you want to have it both ways. And again, why did He not allow others to see his light? Why did they have to be forced by His followers? Those are the sticks in my craw (what IS a craw, anyway?).



AGain... its all the souls that chose these paths. This is what was required to refine all of creation, to rectify all of creation. While it was part of God's plan....we all wanted this as I said before.

YOu said Im dodging your questions... Im not though. YOu arent understanding what I mean. What I mean is that the clearer the perspective the more you realize that all of the lower perspectives are contained within that one. As you travel along increasing perspective you see things clearer... and you see all the other perspectives and levels contained with in that one.

The ultimate perspective is God's view. That is what I mean by the other thing you said. That the ultimate interpretation is that perspective. (I dont know that one since Im not God obviously, lol)


Ahlyssah wrote:
In the scriptures, Lilith was the first wife of Adam who was kicked out of Eden when she refused to submit to him (another reason I have for believing that God looks upon women unfavorably). She became a demon when she started taking pleasure with the demons and giving birth to little demons. Kinda like a bad "Sci-Fi Original Movie" if you ask me.



Well... in the concealed revelation of what took place was that Lillith did not have love in her heart. And she was giving birth to demons because of the satan consciousness that she was attaining. Her not submitting to Adam meant that she would not become selfless for the sake of all the souls of the universe (which were all in Adam). See, according to scripture, all the souls of the universe were in Adam... but Liliith hated him (meaning she hated all of the souls). So that is why she was thrown out, because she would have destroyed paradise.
God does not hate women... He created woman to be a companion with man... to be united. And also God has female attributes to now just male.


Ahlyssah wrote:
But if Nimrod was the problem, why did God have to split everybody up? Yeah, Nimrod probably told them lies and mixed up their realities, but it says in the Bible that God will forgive those who repent, and gives second chances. These people didn't get their second chance. God didn't come down and tell them, "Look, the gesture is sweet and all, but this is not what I want." God seems to like being dramatic, and in the course, somewhat ineffective. The Ten Plagues, for instance, didn't have to go down: God could have sent an angel, or just come down and backhanded the Pharaoh. He could have appeared to Nimrod and told him that if he did not cease his activities, He would do "something drastic". You might argue that God doesn't want to get involved, but He often does, sadly leading to death and destruction when something less severe would have sufficed earlier on.



God split everyone up because He didnt want the knowledge that Nimrod had attained to be used again in that way. You see, with knowledge... it requires wisdom... and if that wisdom is not attained, the knowledge can be very very dangerous. It would have been detramental to creation if they had continued. So, think of it as your little son took the cookies out of the jar without permission and you send him to his room and he cant play video games or watch TV. THis is the same thing... everyone was dabbling in the wrong stuff... so instead of letting creation destroy itself, God saved them by splitting them up. And by this, more diverse nations and cultures and languages came about. But remember, it was all of the souls that also chose this. Not just God... we all wanted this. Everything that happens is for a really specific and deep reason. Both God and Creation wanted it this way.



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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Draggoness wrote:
No science CAN NOT and HAS NOT proven the existence of God or of any other supreme being. If God is truly all powerful, all knowing then IT CAN'T BE MEASURED. God in any religion is an intangable thing...you can't reach out and touch God any more then a person can truely understand all of Gods plans. If you could prove the existance of God then faith would no longer be necessary, it would be a fact.



It has proven that the possibility is more than definitely concievable.The rest is up to the perspective and belief of the person experiencing that. God is everything and nothing. So the things that God is in this world... they can be measured. It is proven fact that everything physical can be measured, which is why we have tape measures, rulers and things like that.

All the things that are part of this world is part of God. So yes, you cannot measure God beyond the physical world... but you certain can measure things that He created since it is all part of Him. Science proves it if you look from the perspective that enables it to exist. Without the proper perspective, it is just science.
With the proper perspective, it will lead you to where your faith comes from. Instead of thinking about facts(they are very important), try thinking about reality(which is more important).


Draggoness wrote:
Second, there is no one perception of God to define..to Hindus, Buddihists, and other "Eastern Religions" there isn't really a God... there is a universal void. This void is not necessarily a thinking entity (though in Hinduism it does take multiple forms...very complicated) it is simply a void that everything is and exists in. How can you prove the existence of nothing? Actually what version of God is science trying to prove? I would be very careful of people with an agenda.....



Again... its all perspective. But its all perspective of looking at the same thing. The existence of nothing cant be proven... that is where God comes in. If you believe it or not... its up to the person viewing reality and what the person believes reality is. Science is proving God... everything and nothing comes from this God. That version. The only agenda I have is to get people to seek, search, dig, study and look for truth for themselves. I can only share my perspective... that is all I can do. But I think it is important for people to find the truth themselves. It must be that internal quest as well external.

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Re: Who should get into heaven?


I couldn't honestly let A in but not B either It more depends that the Christian belives and is truley sorry to God not just 'he will forgive no matter what' both of them would not get in given the circumtances.

---

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Re: Who should get into heaven?


What about in places where God has not made Himself known, such as to the tribal peoples of Africa? Since he deliberately denied them to see His supposed glory, can He really expect them to worship and praise His name?

What do you think?

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:

What about in places where God has not made Himself known, such as to the tribal peoples of Africa? Since he deliberately denied them to see His supposed glory, can He really expect them to worship and praise His name?

What do you think?



God has made Himself known to those people. God has revealed Himself to them in the way that they can comprehend and percieve. He has not denied anyone... it is all about perspective.

The ultimate revealing of the message of the Bible is that when it is all done... all will return to God.

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ashmosh314 wrote:

God has made Himself known to those people. God has revealed Himself to them in the way that they can comprehend and percieve. He has not denied anyone... it is all about perspective.




You've mentioned this before, and it makes sense. HOWEVER, it seems that you forget how many people were massacred because they "did not believe in" God. I think what you are trying to say is that God described Himself differently to the tribal peoples that were outside of the fertile crescent, but you could also be saying that He came to them the same way he did Moses and so forth, and that they simply rejected Him. If it's the former, well, God should have made a memo; more people have died in the name of religion than any other philosophical, resource-oriented, or imperialistic reason. Wouldn't it be stupid if we all worship the same God? If you mean the latter, then you're gonna get jumped on big time emoticon But not right now, cuz I've got English in fifteen minutes.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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Re: Who should get into heaven?



Ahlyssah wrote:

ashmosh314 wrote:
God has made Himself known to those people. God has revealed Himself to them in the way that they can comprehend and percieve. He has not denied anyone... it is all about perspective.



You've mentioned this before, and it makes sense. HOWEVER, it seems that you forget how many people were massacred because they "did not believe in" God..



That was due to people's lack of perspective, the churches taught from a limited perspective and so they did not see the truth from its clearest view. Unfortunately this is how it went down. There will come a day when all of Creation will unite with the same idea or atleast with loving tolerance..


Ahlyssah wrote:
 I think what you are trying to say is that God described Himself differently to the tribal peoples that were outside of the fertile crescent, but you could also be saying that He came to them the same way he did Moses and so forth, and that they simply rejected Him.



No, God came in a way that each people would be able to percieve and comprehend. Im not saying that God came the same way as Moses and that they rejected it. All the civilizations receieved and believed and accepted the way He came to them.


Ahlyssah wrote:
 If it's the former, well, God should have made a memo; more people have died in the name of religion than any other philosophical, resource-oriented, or imperialistic reason. Wouldn't it be stupid if we all worship the same God? If you mean the latter, then you're gonna get jumped on big time emoticon But not right now, cuz I've got English in fifteen minutes.



Lmao.... a memo? Haha that was pretty funny. That make a good skit for a comedy. You should write one, that would be halarious.

Well, we all are worshipping the Same God... but we all see Him through our own eyes and with our own perspective. Everyone sees it differently but its all the same world we are living in and looking at.

The variety is the many faces of God which is very healthy for the world.

Hey I come in peace dude... I dont wanna get jumped. Sheesh... lol




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ashmosh314, 19/Apr/06, 17:54
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Well, since you said it was the former and not the latter, you don't get jumped. At least not until I need lunch money. emoticon

And even then, I'll be gentle.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
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you should be careful........ Im a master of kung fu... lol
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Lets face it, at one point in everybody's life, people do commit sins. Yes some of them are worst then others. Some people steel, is this because they have to in order to survive? Some people kill, is this because they seek revenge? Some people lie,is this because the truth will have a negetive impact on the rest of thier future? Unforunatly it is a very complicated answer on who should get into heaven because everybody does wrong in thier life at some point.
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