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Loud G Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


Xuile, and you have every right to disagree with me. Ahlyssa asked why it was such an important issue to Christians, all I did was explain that. I in no way want to force you to do it for MY religious motivations. :)


Addi, no, I don't agree whoeheartedly with them at all. In fact I disagree with 99.9% of Christians on a great many things. I just think that they do things because they want life to be better, they don't really have a direction or guidance though. They are kinda floundering in a sea of social ethics. 'Christians' as a whole have never really understood non-christians and they don't play very well :)

I say this because they don't play well with Christians either. hehe

Addi, I agree totally with you about the "true anti-abortionists"

(of course you could say the same about the true anti Bush people...but this is not a political forum) ;)

---
Writing: Eriadhin

17/May/05, 16:00 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Xuile Solen Profile
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*reads my own post* hmm, sorry if I was wrong but I honestly can't remember even writing that. I'm a russ so drunkeness is rather common for me. Last night tonight though ;)

But I think abortion should be restricted. It shouldn't be an alternative to prevention. If prevention fails, parents are unable to take care of a child (and no adoption seems possible) etc etc. Cases should be validated individualy imo.

---
"We will win through, no matter the cost!" Arcturus Mensk
17/May/05, 18:40 Link to this post Email   PM  MSN 
 
Loud G Profile
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Yes, I agree whole heartedly


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17/May/05, 20:51 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Xuile Solen Profile
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Glad we've come to agreement ;) I feel my own country is far too easy going on many subjects. Abortion, crime etc. 21 years is max in norway. I feel it should be raised to at least 30 but the main problem isn't the number, it's how difficult it is to get it. Oh yeah...abortion.

I've read the laws and seen how it works and it's far too easy to get it. You can give a BS reason and the doctors will do it. It shouldn't be like that. But of course, it can't take too long to evaluate the situation as abortions should happen as soon as possible =p

---
"We will win through, no matter the cost!" Arcturus Mensk
17/May/05, 21:07 Link to this post Email   PM  MSN 
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


Loud G: Just in case I'm coming off as a little anti-Christian (because I'm sure I sound rather harsh in some of my posts), I don't have a problem with your religion in general at all; just some of the crazy extremist groups that flaunt their religion as both a calling card and a shield from attack and ridicule. Sorry if my generalizations (which are bad, I know I've said) may seem to extend to you and the other members of the board. In response to the decisions of your friend, everybody handles stressors differently. For a lot of people having the child can be emotionally healing (I know that in such a case I'd go ahead and bear it, but then again I want children . . . stupid biological clock). Some of the groups on that page advocate such therapy. However, everybody is different, and what gives your friend comfort could result in a psychotic episode for another.

Xulie: I definately agree that abortion is too easy for the casual um, I don't know how to put this, idiotic teen who likes to party all night at the expense of sleeping through health class, maybe? IMHO, people should know better by the time they're sexually receptive (hint hint, Texas). I admit that accidents do happen, that girls are pressured into it (not forced necessarily, but made to feel obliging), and, in a few years, if Bush has his way, because they honestly were not aware that when THIS body part goes into THAT body part, babies are made. However, there are far too many people who know damn well what's going to happen, and go on in their little cycle of kiss, strip, screw, kiss, strip, screw, kiss, strip . . .

Addi: So true. So insanely, agonizingly true.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
17/May/05, 22:16 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Xuile Solen Profile
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*sigh* This subject haunts me in biology and now at the end of the school year it haunts me in religion and ethics. It seems the discussion never ends. I got the usual, a few articles, some questions and told to discuss before presenting answers to the class.

It was pretty much the usual, christian fanatics making fools of themselves by doing protests outside hospitals; pushing pictures of abortet fetuses and the like up in womens faces as they entered (abortioning or not), what doctos etc feel about and then...something new. It was facts, actuall facts. Romania, though recently "free" (depends on how you view it I guess) form communism has had abortion as an issue during it's socialistic time. They had a very liberal abortion law, much like here in norway. In...1977 (I think) they desided to change this, much like the ones here in norway want. Mothers dying in while pregnant or in labour doubled, if people can't abort legally they may try risky illegal methods. Many claim that the abortion law pulls birthrates down but Romania disproved this, the birthrate was as it had been before.

I can't say this has changed my views alot, most people have their views in stone anyway but it does disprove many of the myths anti abortionists use in their protests. Anyone hear or read anything similar to this?

---
"We will win through, no matter the cost!" Arcturus Mensk
27/May/05, 21:03 Link to this post Email   PM  MSN 
 
Alpha Centauri Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


Ok... Let's take a look at the whole issue from a different perspective:

- Q: If I killed a pregnant woman, how many homicides would I be accused of?
- A: ONE! (according to the law a foetus is NOT a person, therefore it cannot be murdered at this stage).

- Q: If I died before my wife gave birth to my son, who would inherit my property?
- A: My wife ONLY! (according to the law a foetus is NOT a person, therefore it cannot be a beneficiary at this stage).

- Q: Why all our personal certificates denote the date of our BIRTH instead of the date of our CONCEPTION?
-A: Because, in legal terms, a person comes to life from their date of BIRTH and on; NOT from the date of their conception, nor from any of the stages in between conception and birth... This is why we use to celebrate our birtday as being the FIRST day in our life.

Plain and simple: During the foetus stage, there is NO person; there's only a POTENTIAL! One cannot physically murder a potential.

Now, according to each one's ETHICS, abortion may be seen as murder, or maybe not. Keyword here: "each one's ethics"... Anti-abortion supporters, don't try to impose YOUR ethics on me... Feel free to live YOUR lives according to YOUR ethics, same way that I'm free to live MY life according to MINE!...

And, should someone of you anti-abortionists be tempted to refer to the "majority rules" kind of crap, may I remind you that it was the majority that put Jesus to the cross...

emoticon

---



12/Jun/05, 23:56 Link to this post PM 
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"



Alpha Centauri wrote:

And, should someone of you anti-abortionists be tempted to refer to the "majority rules" kind of crap, may I remind you that it was the majority that put Jesus to the cross...



Ouch. Harsh, and likely to enrage a very many people in the Christian community. At the end of your rope, eh?
 emoticon

But it is a valid argument. "Majority rules" is one of the biggest mistakes this world has ever come up with. Yeah sure, if it's almost the entire population for something, and a few wackoes against, then it's valid. But, in this case we're talking about a significant chunk of the population. Some people say it's a 60-40 (anti-choice and pro-choice, respectively) split, to others it's 55-45, and still more claim it's as close as 52-48. IMHO, it doesn't matter WHAT the exact figures are; what DOES matter is an evident concentration of many, many people who do feel that abortion should be legalized. I'm sorry, but with a population this big, it doesn't do one well to start picking favorites (and no, choosing to legalize abortion is NOT favoritism of pro-choicers, as some believe; the anti-choice don't have to do it if they don't want to, so how are their rights infracted if it IS legalized?).

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
14/Jun/05, 0:26 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Xuile Solen Profile
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Why is it the anti abortionists can't see the consequenses of banning it? People will turn to illegal methods, often dangerous methonds that might kill the pregnant woman. It happened in Romania and the only difference was a rather high increase in deaths among pregnant women. Birth rate etc was the same. This isn't a "maybe" or a "might" this HAS happened it it will most likely happen in any other country that bans abortions.

---
"We will win through, no matter the cost!" Arcturus Mensk
14/Jun/05, 15:11 Link to this post Email   PM  MSN 
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


It's true, and sad as well. But hey, where there's a will, there's also a closet . . . full of coathangers . . .

But let's diverge from abortion for a bit. Another hot topic in the fundamentalist society is the use of contrceptives. It seems that now the definition of murder has expanded to include not only the taking of life, but the preventing of it as well. There have been motions to prohibit sale of contraceptives in certain states, both exclusively to minors (under 18) and to young and old alike. And this isn't just pills, this is condoms, cervical caps, implants (forgot the specific name . . . darn you, tenth grade PE teacher!), douching, the works. This also includes outlawing the Pill for your average, aching, nine-days-or-more menstrual sufferers who are sick of missing work and school, as naturally (so sayeth the activists) just being in contact with a contraceptive is going to make us all fall to temptation.

So, tell me, what doth THOU think?

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
15/Jun/05, 1:46 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Loud G Profile
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That is ridiculous. Contraceptive is a good thing. Sure it makes it easier for people to be immoral but that is not the issue. They would probably do that anyway.

It is good for married folk who aren't ready financially for kids yet. And it keeps babies from being born out of wedlock (even though they shouldn't be having premarital sex anyway but like I said, that's another issue) :)

It is not murder to stop it. You lose eggs/sperm every months anyway. It is once they combine and life starts growing that religion begins to be concerned. (though Catholics seem to think otherwise)

The pill is a cool invention. My wife loves it.


---
Writing: Eriadhin

15/Jun/05, 15:00 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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As do I. emoticon And I get suspicious looks from my parents every time I leave the house.

And yeah, plenty of people WILL do it anyway; that's why abortion is such a "big issue," because according to some, it's a child who pays for its parents' mistake. Personally, I say hand out the condoms, perscribe the pills, and maybe we won't come across so many dead babies in trash cans, eh? I don't like it, but it's not my life, my conscience, or my soul at stake, so why should I or any one like me give a rat's thyroid gland?

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
15/Jun/05, 21:32 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Addi Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


Personally, I simply feel sorry for the person who tries to involve themselves in my sex life uninvited. emoticon And I do consider strangers commenting on whether I should use contraception to be an attempt at uninvited involvement in my sex life.

People need to learn the difference between their business and not-their-business. And frankly, I think that true of a lot of these issues.
16/Jun/05, 13:42 Link to this post PM 
 
Alpha Centauri Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"



Addi wrote:
People need to learn the difference between their business and not-their-business.

Dream on, Addi... emoticon

You see, religion (and I mean EVERY religion known so far) has always been the means and the chance for everybody to fiddle with everybody else's business. Not much has changed from the time Israelis used to stone the adulteresses (some 2,000 years ago) to the modern neo-Christians who would gladly do the same, if they only had the legitimate standpoint to do so...

Someone in this very topic wrote:
I have no problem with child murderers dying.

See? This "stoning" mentality is still here, intact, all the same, all along...

emoticon


Last edited by:
Alpha Centauri, 25/Jun/05, 23:31


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25/Jun/05, 23:20 Link to this post PM 
 
Addi Profile
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Agreed, Alpha, but a girl can dream. emoticon
26/Jun/05, 19:32 Link to this post PM 
 
AnnaAngel1 Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


aw alpha like addi says it never hurts to dream no matter what shape we are in ...... medically speaking emoticon

---
Please visit me at Heavenly Universal Star

~Anna~
*Life is so beautiful so live it to the fullest of each and every new day*
20/Jul/05, 19:45 Link to this post PM 
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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It hurts if you've got myoclonis . . . do you have any idea how many times I've banged my knee or sprained my toes in the past year? Stupid unconscious muscular jerkings . . .

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
12/Aug/05, 23:09 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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Re: "Abortions for All!"


what you guys are all missing is the big picture--
regardless of morals, women have been giving themselves abortions for thousands of years. the only thing we're controlling right now is whether or not to give them a clean, sanitary environment to do so in.

the point is, women will have abortions, whether it's right or wrong.

it's just not safe to do it in a closet w/ a coat hanger.

sad but true
kalel
7/Sep/05, 4:37 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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So very true, but our friends Mr. Robertson and The Talking Bible would have us believe that this is simply another sign of our degenerating morality, no doubt as a result of the decline in Christian worship and control over the civilized world. The right-wing clergymen are simply using the recent development of safe, convenient procedures, and thus an increase in people who use these public facilities, to "prove" that America is going to Hell in a shopping cart (idiom altered for current date; who uses handbaskets these days?) if we don't get Jesus back into our lives, schools, and laws.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
10/Sep/05, 16:39 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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Since this is a pretty hot topic in the US currently, what are your opinions on sex education? Should we lay all the details out there for the children to be exposed to (i.e., describe all forms of intercourse, sexual orientation, but also prevention methods and potential risks), and risk putting ideas into their heads, or should we try and censor our children from such potentially corrupting topics, and try to convince them that morality is stronger than an instinct that kicks in around puberty and only gets stronger throughout life, all the while shielding them from the topics of contraception in the hopes that their minds will remain pure?

What would you say are possible pros and cons of these two approaches? Be scientific, moral, or just speak from the inner depths of your hypothalamus, I don't care, it's all good input.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
15/Sep/05, 3:28 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Loud G Profile
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Well, man has proven that he can subdue the desires of his body time and again. That we do or don't personally is another issue entirely :)

I think this issue has so many different possibilities that it is hard to make a single choice.

I went through the sex ed program, ignoring most of the information as I'm sure most of my class mates did too.

That is one problem. Kids don't listen in class :)

There is always the problem of telling them about it makes them think it is ok. This is not the case for all kids, but I think that if they do tell kids how it all works they should stress a recommendation to avoid it, while giving them info on the protection too. If I were teaching the class I would probably deride those who indulge in such activities and make it look as unpopular as possible. Part of the problem is that sex is glamourized in pop culture. So I don't know how to get around that.

I survived without it til I was married. This was because of my conviction, because I sure as heck had plenty of opportunities with girlfriends who didn't share my beliefs (and I'm sure were very disappointed with me, but I stopped that by having a "there-will-be-no-sex" discussion with them as soon as we got serious) :)

Sex-Ed is not the thing that gets people experimenting, it is the Pop-culture, the movies, and etc, and their friends.
THough I don't think that Sex-Ed should go into detail about HOW to have sex. People have to figure that out on their own I think. Just the basics of WHAT, and WHERE. and of course the consequences, repercussions, and forms to avoid it.

But I definitely think that the current system of parental permission is a good one. Some parents may disagree with the teaching method and prefer to talk about it themselves when they feel the child is ready, that is the parent's perogative. And I think the student should have some say in whether they want to take it too. My little sister for example, chose not to give my mom the permission form because she didn't want to take it. And still never has. She, like me, will wait til marriage, I have no doubt.

I also would like to point out to those who say, "but if you don't do it before you are married you won't know if you are compatible sexually" or "...you won't know how to do it"

keep thinking that.

Not having premarital sex only means that you have nothing to compare it too, so when you do it with your spouse it will be wonderful no matter what. There are no necessary life skills that are learned and the person engaging in premarital sex has no advantage to the one who didn't upon entering in marriage.

Therefore, it should be explained but discouraged. Of course, everyone gets to make their own choices, but that is life :)

---
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15/Sep/05, 18:07 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Ahlyssah Profile
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Re: "Abortions for All!"



Loud G wrote:

"you won't know how to do it"



Wow, that's really funny. What is there to know? It's all instinctual! Strip down and lie down with a member of the opposite sex. Trust me, handboooks are not required for something as basic as reproduction. If you need help, tune into Animal Planet on Saturdays; that's when they do a lot of documentaries.




Kids don't listen in class :)



So true! Then again, since many of these little seminars (especially in middle school) occurred for me in the morning, that might have something to do with it. Before ninth grade, Family Life Education was done outside of the classroom; in other words, we were taken out of class and to another location, which may have given students the impression of unimportance. However, in ninth grade, Sex Ed was a part of biology, and therefore we were actually expected to know the information. I think we could still opt out at that point. However, in tenth grade, it was a required part of the PE health curriculum, and we therefore HAD to take it. Of course, by the time we hit sixteen, about half of us have been deflowered anyway, so it just defeats the purpose.

However, I don't think it should be left to the parents to teach their children about sex. No offense, but a lot of you elder-generation types are cowards when it comes to discussing important subjects with your children. Especially if YOU made mistakes in the past, which will make you even more uncomfortable. Unless you have the confidence that you can answer their questions without faltering, I think you should leave it to the schools; getting red in the face while talking about "tadpoles swimming up a river" just makes the kid think it's not meant to be taken seriously.

As for stressing the recommendation to avoid it, there's only so much a teacher is allowed to do without getting sued these days. The only thing we can REALLY do is to stress that the only way to keep disease-free and prevent pregnancy is not to do it, which may not be enough. All we can do is pray that they stayed awake for the part about latex condoms . . .

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
16/Sep/05, 2:03 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
Ray Oceanweaver Profile
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Hi guys.

Sure, telling the kids about sex and contraception can be left to the parents, but some parents themselves, thinking that they know everything about sex and therefore not bothering to check before they impart their wisdom to their little darlings, can get information VERY wrong. Whereas schools have trained people to teach the kids, people that are not necessarily teachers, but who have all the information. Sure, some kids don't listen in class, but from my experience, they're more likely to listen to interesting discussions about sex (oooh, *giggle giggle*, SEX!) in the classroom than sit on the family sofa with a parent or two, squirming uncomfortably during the "birds and bees" talk.

So which would you rather for your kids? The real facts, or a mish mash of half-forgotten teachings?

I had my first sex-ed lesson when I was nine or ten. In my opinion, that was an excellent age to have it, as it was before most of us had matured and begun to have sexual desires, so it wasn't too late. Of course, the lessons were very simple, but they got the ideas across. Lessons such as this were repeated in greater detail when I was eleven/twelve, twelve/thirteen, and fourteen/fifteen. And by then, like Ahlyssah, it was being taught as a part of the biology curriculum, so we had to know it. Most of the kids in my class found it "interesting" (especially the hilarious stories that the teacher told to go along with it), so the information sunk in and stayed. Of course, some parents wouldn't want their little innocent babies to be exposed to such wanton graphicness, but that's life. Grow up.

If parents feel the need to withdraw their children from these classes, then they're nuts, quite frankly. Unless they've told their children everything they need to know, or their child is supernaturally amazing and just knows this stuff, then bye bye little James. Any kid can turn on the tv, or a movie nowadays and see actors and actresses 'having sex' - without protection! And without anyone else to explain the consequences of this to them, what do you think they're gonna do? Go out and buy a pack of condoms? "But the man in the film didn't use them, whatever they are." Great example to set for kids.

But then there's always the option of banning tv and movies from the house, spending the evenings playing Monopoly and Connect-4, and keeping the children in until they're thirty and married...

---
Rachel


~The optimist fails as badly as the pessimist, just has a better time of it~

Reading: House of Echoes - Barbara Erskine
Writing: Fated Helicopter Ride - working title - short story
18/Sep/05, 18:35 Link to this post Email   PM  Blog
 
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The only thing I thought was graphic was the video showing the results of sex. It made sad that I'm a girl. emoticon I can tell you one thing, I don't care what they say about "mental damage," (which hasn't even been proved) I am taking that anesthesia when it's offered.

---
There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
19/Sep/05, 0:40 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 
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There's something else we should consider when debating abortion. I didn't want to bring this up, since it's still being debated by scientists and is a relatively new concept, but I may as well.

It's quite possible that the tendancy for rape may be genetic. It might sound a little crazy to some of you, but just consider it for a moment:

Life on this planet revolves around reproduction, and one of the main goals of all animal life is to somehow manage to keep one's genes alive in offspring. Typically, the stronger one is, the more likely one is to have first pick of the females and ensure the survival of one's line. On the other hand, that means that the weaker you are, the less likely you are to catch the attention of an ovulating coed, and there's a good chance that your line will die out. The solution? Don't give the female a chance to choose; force your line into the future.

Now take a look at your typical rapist: These aren't strong, self-assured men. They don't feel good about themselves. Rape is about dominence and power, not pleasure. These men feel lacking in strength, either physically or mentally, and dominating someone "weaker" than themselves gives them a sense of power. We're past the time of fighting for the right to mate (somewhat), and not everybody who has sex is doing so just for offspring, so why would they still feel the need to dominate someone sexually, unless there was a driving factor beneath it all?

That said, do you really want to take the risk of banning all abortion (as is being done in some areas) if it's possible that the resulting offspring might be more likely than average to begin a life of predation? The speculation might not be enough to convince you, but take it from me: I and some of my friends know from unpleasant experience that rape does run in some families. I don't think that needs elaboration right now.

But, there you go. Another practical reason to allow abortion.

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There are things which Man can not understand. For everything else, there's a lie.

Let's see if we can't get to the truth of the matter, hmm?

'Lyssa was here . . . and she'll be back
26/Jan/06, 4:43 Link to this post Email   PM  AIM  Blog
 


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