Quotes from the America Taliban https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/t720 Runboard| Quotes from the America Taliban en-us Thu, 28 Mar 2024 11:53:50 +0000 Thu, 28 Mar 2024 11:53:50 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7196,from=rss#post7196https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7196,from=rss#post7196Just to add something to what Ahlyssah was saying earlier, the anchient Greeks who were considered the pinacle of modern society considered homosexuality to be a sign of the aristocracy. To be homosexual was a sign of intelligence and and class this idea was destroyed by the dominance of christianity and catholicism. A young man in the upper class would generally have relations with older man and be taken under his wing. Some of the greatest Greek heros had Homosexual tendencies, Herakles(Hercules), and the god of wisdom himself Apollo, and even the king of the gods Zeus was attracted to young men. Do some research on the topic the myths are very interesting. nondisclosed_email@example.com (fantasyturtle8187)Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:25:14 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7195,from=rss#post7195https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7195,from=rss#post7195Oh, believe me, I've had it. I do not treat this subject or any religious subject lightly, or without study, prayer, etc.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:24:54 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7194,from=rss#post7194https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7194,from=rss#post7194I meant a conscious decision. As in, you once thought to yourself as you were growing up, "Hmmm, I think that I should prefer the appearance of girls over boys." It's like making a decision to fall in love. You don't look at someone and say, "Well, she looks pretty. I think I will fall in love with her, without knowing anything about her personality, likes, and how bad her breath is first thing in the morning." Attraction comes on slower than that, and for the most part no one notices it until Mr. Happy gives a Victoria's Secret bilboard a standing ovation. I don't know at this point. It's like I said to PB: this is YOUR personal opinion, not necessarily what the rest of the world thinks. I'm glad you hold so much conviction in your life philosophy. Me, I'm all for being proven wrong. That's how we learn. If God himself appears to me and says that homosexual activity is wrong, I will A) convert and B) stop advocating rights for gay people. And this is kinda harsh, but unless YOU get a direct transmission from the Lord, I can't agree that strong conviction is enough to prove you are right.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:23:20 +0000 Re: It's good to be bad!https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7193,from=rss#post7193https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7193,from=rss#post7193Loud G wrote: But the true question is this: Should we give out benefits for being married or not. Ah...and here we hit on the true root of the subject. That's more the question, to me, than anything else. If you make marriage a strictly religious union (which, Loud G, I agree with you it is), and have government butt out completely, the entire issue goes away (from a legality standpoint). Those that want to recognize it do, and those who don't do not. The government stays out of it, and we're free to live our lives. nondisclosed_email@example.com (TimMurphy)Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:52:59 +0000 Re: It's good to be bad!https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7192,from=rss#post7192https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7192,from=rss#post7192Ahlyssah wrote: And as for the "choice" argument, I can't help but wonder: how many of you straight people, at around the time of puberty, made a conscious decision to only be attraced to members of the opposite sex? Anyone? Again you assume that choice means choosing to be gay. Or that it means one choice made at a specific time instead of many small choices building up to an end result. I for one did choose to be attracted to the opposite sex. I made that choice many times throughout my life. I can certainly see the options available and know that the body is capable of being attracted to a stump if the juices are flowing right. I am convinced the body could swing any way but that our minds/spirits guide it toward our chosen (whether conscious or not) destination. Whether it is a choice or not is not the issue though. I for one would support "government benefits granted" to all people regardless of whatever because that is what the govt is designed to do. But the true question is this: Should we give out benefits for being married or not. If we took out the benefits issue this would be less a political issue and more a moral one. I am torn as to the correct path. This, as Tim has pointed out, is not an easy issue. Both extreme want to see it as a black and white issue. I think homosexual behavior is wrong. Bad for society as a whole, etc. but I also believe in treating all people with love, respect, and equality under the govt. I admire homosexuals for the people they are, though I dispise their actions. This is true of how I feel about a lot of people, not just gays. Marriage was given of God. (Deny if you like, that is my deeply held belief) He created it when he created Adam and Eve. I realize that not all share this belief, depite it being true. Which is why we have this discussion :) The true christian way is to embrace the sinner, but make no excuse for the sin they commit, nor urge them to continue, but allow them their free agency and love them despite what they choose to do with it. That is why I personally think that the benefits should be given across the board because that is the govts. job, but that the marriage part should be left alone. Their are many disagreements. Which is why I believe we must find a comprimise like the one I have suggested. Not rewarding either party for their sexual behavior, but rewarding them for being hard working american citizens.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:34:10 +0000 Re: It's good to be bad!https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7191,from=rss#post7191https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7191,from=rss#post7191Procrastinating Blastula wrote:      Hello, I've been gone a while. I've missed you all. But anyway, to anwer your question of -do I think homosexuals are entitled to "equal rights?"- In every way yes EXCEPT marrage. The life-style is immoral and violates a few thousand years of tradition. If you think I'm insensitive, too bad. Obviously I can't presuade you to see it in mine and the few million other American's eyes. The definition of democracy is "a government by the people; especially: rule of MAJORITY..." Its not that difficult, and if you want to call me a fascist for wanting majority rule, go ahead, but the truth is I'm a true democrat. Well, if you want to put it that way, it was also a tradition to keep women in the house and silent in church. It was a tradition that if you had any unusual birthmarks or moles that you were burned as a witch. Then again, those are only CHRISTIAN religions, and believe it or not, folks, the US is NOT a Christian country, no matter what the government says. Some Native American tribes consider homosexuality a gift from the gods. There are some groups that consider gay men as the ultimate man--holding sway over women and men both. And, sweetie, those groups have been in practice waaaaaaaay longer than Christians have. To deny them the right to hold their beliefs as they see fit, just because you think yours are more important, is arrogant, subversive, and petty. Yes, I know how rude that is. And as for the "choice" argument, I can't help but wonder: how many of you straight people, at around the time of puberty, made a conscious decision to only be attraced to members of the opposite sex? Anyone? nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:01:30 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7190,from=rss#post7190https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7190,from=rss#post7190It's a shame, then, that is America is not, never was, and never has been, a democracy. We're a representative republic. It's what we always have been. But, most importantly, we are a nation who's government is defined and limited by the constitution. I certainly understand exactly what you are saying. It is against tradition, and is not what marriage has been for thousands of years. You believe it to be immoral--which is fine. Show me a legal precedent. Show me where in the constitution it defines morality, and grants the government the right to protect morality, and I'll concede. If you can't, then any law banning gay marriage does not pass the constitutional test, unless you can get 2/3 of the people in this country to ratify an amendment to the constitution. That's the beauty of it...it can be changed, but it ain't easy. All the debate that has gone on in this thread "is homosexuality a choice" "is it moral" "is this the will of the majority" is completely irrelevant. We can argue about that stuff 'till the cows come home, and with no clear outcome (nor should we have one...it isn't a cut-and-dry issue. People have different opinions). It all comes down to the legality of the thing. Passing a law that bans gay marriage ain't legal, because it means that government benefits granted to married couples (tax breaks) are NOT extended to homosexual citizens. That is discrimination. Period. nondisclosed_email@example.com (TimMurphy)Sat, 19 Nov 2005 01:32:53 +0000 It's good to be bad!https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7189,from=rss#post7189https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7189,from=rss#post7189     Hello, I've been gone a while. I've missed you all. But anyway, to anwer your question of -do I think homosexuals are entitled to "equal rights?"- In every way yes EXCEPT marrage. The life-style is immoral and violates a few thousand years of tradition. If you think I'm insensitive, too bad. Obviously I can't presuade you to see it in mine and the few million other American's eyes. The definition of democracy is "a government by the people; especially: rule of MAJORITY..." Its not that difficult, and if you want to call me a fascist for wanting majority rule, go ahead, but the truth is I'm a true democrat.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Procrastinating Blastula)Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:06:22 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7188,from=rss#post7188https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7188,from=rss#post7188I wanted to add this to my last post, but I had to go to class: I think that there is an underlying meaning to the push for homosexual marriage. Symbolically, one could interpret this as an attack on the fundamental meaning of "marriage". Or maybe I just pay too much attention in English 101. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:14:12 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7187,from=rss#post7187https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7187,from=rss#post7187Ahlyssah wrote:  Then again, I'm a novelist, so my definition of love is rather extreme. This got me thinking...I had a Psychology professor who spoke about love very extensively. He defined love as, "Thinking, feeling and acting towards self and others in ways that promote growth." In other words, if you love someone, your actions towards them should be growthful in some manner--you act with their best interests at heart. He also said the "fundamental human dynamic is that of the longing for love, vs. the fear of losing love." In other words, we desperately want to be loved, but at the same time, are all terrified of the pain that comes with losing it. I think this ties in greatly with the decline of marriage...people want to be loved, so they get married. However, they are so afraid of being hurt, that they don't give themselves up emotionally, don't truly act in a loving matter towards their husband/wife. This leads to bitterness, people seeking love elsewhere (and, very often, confusing sex with true emotional love), thus causing marriages to deflate. That was his theory, anyway. Personally, I think it makes sense. I like it. nondisclosed_email@example.com (TimMurphy)Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:47:44 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7186,from=rss#post7186https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7186,from=rss#post7186You know, Loud G, your argument that allowing gays to marry would have an adverse effect on marriage as a whole, supported by the ever-increasing rates of adultery and divorce, can easily be turned against you (not in a malicious way, I'm not trying to be mean here). After all, you've admitted that the holy union of two people is deteriorating, and that people are seeking passion outside of their homes. You seem to consider this as a rise in weakness among people (at least that's what you've implied), and you use homosexuality as an example of tradition-breaking activites. You know this is wrong because the Bible delcares it as abominable. The Bible also defines marriage, specifically the holy union between a man and a woman. Did you ever think that maybe it's the fault of marriage itself that's causing the downfall? Think about it: When marriage was first introduced into the rapidly growing Christian religion, it was basically a way to make the next generation with God's approval. With plagues and famines and a high infant mortality, people needed to punch out as many kids as they could in their lifetimes. As women were still seen as the objective possessions of men, they had little say in who they married, and how they felt about it. Nowadays, feminism has given rise to independently living women, who now decide if and when they get married, and to whom. With less of an extinction threat, people can be leisurely about their relationships, instead of running into them as soon as they can reproduce. There's no need to personally keep the world populated, as everyone around you is commiting THE ACT every day. However, the fundamentals of marriage still hold sway, and have embedded themselves in our minds. People feel they HAVE to get married. Their very standing as human beings depend on it. So, they rush into marriages they don't emotionally want with one-hundred percent of their hearts, and thus the "love" aspect fades away quite quickly. Marriage, by it's subliminal definition, is not about love at all; it's about supporting the species, and making sure that your generation provides enough little missionaries to get the word of God to all four corners of the Earth. Think about it: if married people truly and undeniably loved each other, would they cheat? Would they want to divorce? Would they seek out nude photos of 20-year-olds having sex with animals if they were truly at ease with their partners? I can't see that happening in a loving relationship. Then again, I'm a novelist, so my definition of love is rather extreme. Still, it doesn't make sense to hurt someone you care about more than life itself. In conclusion, maybe you shouldn't be attacking the effects. You shouldn't be questioning the acts. I think maybe we should stop pointing fingers at people and take a closer look at the establishment.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:51:27 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7185,from=rss#post7185https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7185,from=rss#post7185No prob Bob :Dnondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:27:49 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7184,from=rss#post7184https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7184,from=rss#post7184Excuse me, LoudG, but I thought it was GAY sexual preferences in conjunction with their civil rights we were talking about in this topic. Not extramarital sex in general... Therefore, when you come up with a "choice-above-all" statement in the topic about gay sexual behavior, it is more than expected that your sayings will be conceived and interpreted being in relation to this PARTICULAR aspect, unless CLEARLY stated otherwise. I've no intention to misinterpret you, but you in turn must clarify a little bit more in the future, so that no misunderstandings occur. Now, stop yelling, will ya? nondisclosed_email@example.com (Alpha Centauri)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:25:14 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7183,from=rss#post7183https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7183,from=rss#post7183Do you actually read my posts or just look for keywords to zoom in on and make me look like an idiot with? I mentioned: Chemical urges. and Choices to indulge in such actions. The whole movement to nix the word "choice" from the argument are not honest to how human nature works. I also gave an example of how a 'normal' man can have sexual urges, and choose not to indulge. Gosh. Does it really bug you all to admit that we are incharge of how we react to what life gives us? That is what I was talking about. I'm not talking about the Whole issue of homosexuality, or that homosexuality itself is a choice. I said indulging in the actions is a choice. I also said everyone HAS A RIGHT to make whatever choice they wish. Free Agency is for everyone. (excuse my yelling, but I'm getting sick of being ignored, misquoted, and generally attacked when I have been sending out a fairly moderate message with no hell or violence toward gays.) It seems that people all have a few choice "come-backs" that they memorize, then when they see a keyword, they just jump onto that "come-back" without considering what was said or logically coming back with something like a real rebuttal. Edit: The main problem I have with the choice argument is not related truly to homosexuality. It is something about our entire society today that they feel the urge to make everyone not responsible for everything they do. It crops up in almost every bit of news or every thing a man can do with his life. Choice is one of the things that makes us human. Take choice away and we might as well be leaping through the jungles somewhere. So when I complain about the choice issue it is not merely from an anti-gay stance that I am trying to make everyone understand. It is from a human perspective on humanity as a whole. I DO feel sorry for those who suffer this pain and anguish every day of their life. Don't paint me as insensitive just because I disagree with their actions. I feel sorry for the man who has gambled his money away too. For the poor nerds who get rejected in school for being smart yet with no social skills. I wish I could help everyone of them. I have friends and aquaintances who have to go through this too (as I've noted many times here). I do not condemn any one, but I'm not going to support actions I disagree with. I will support the people with a listening ear and compassion, but not the action. There is a difference.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:49:27 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7182,from=rss#post7182https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7182,from=rss#post7182Choices, uh? Like the "choice" everyone is given to develop cancer or not, perhaps? Or even like the "choice" everyone has to develop mental anomalies? genetic defects? DNA mutations? all kinds of medical abnormalities? LoudG, with all respect, I find it to be quite ignorant and arrogant from your part to insist on the "choice" scenario, when it's clearly proven beyond any doubt that homosexuality (along with everything connected to all kinds of sexual behavior) greatly depends upon and/or relates to bodily chemistry. Your view of gays being just perverts who follow certain way of life by their own choice only, with everything this choice might entail, not only is completely inaccurate; it's also quite unsympathetic, therefore -I'm sorry to say- it is highly un-Christian.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Alpha Centauri)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:43:47 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7181,from=rss#post7181https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7181,from=rss#post7181umm... that was rude...but you thought I was attacking you, so I'll let it slide :) I wasn't laughing at the pain of you or your friends. merely that little aspect of human nature that makes us all do thing that hurt us. The laugh was at the question, not the people. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:15:52 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7180,from=rss#post7180https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7180,from=rss#post7180Loud G wrote: lol people choose to do things that hurt them all the time :) Do you think that's funny? Do you really find that amusing? Please, enlighten me to what is so humorous. I'm sorry, but this is a very serious issue for me, and the fact that you can sit there and laugh at the pain that many of my friends have gone is just unnatural to me. We may as well drop this subject. There is no way you can possibly understand any of this.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:03:00 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7179,from=rss#post7179https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7179,from=rss#post7179lol people choose to do things that hurt them all the time :) Addi, I was just saying that there is a choice how to act and we all have it. Everyone is free to do it. I'm not trying to force people to do what I think is right, but I will try and persuade them calmly and respectfully :) All I was saying is that trying to shift the blame to chemical urges or whatever is skirting the issue. People do things because they choose to do them. I am fine with people choosing to do things. I'm not fine with people saying they are powerless or whatever. Its just like me choosing not to have sex until I got married. Sure I had urges like any other person. I just held them back, by choice. That is all I'm saying. Not that everyone has to be like me, just that they stop saying they have no choice :) Basically: Take some pride in your choices. Say: that is my choice. Don't beat around the bush.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:34:07 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7178,from=rss#post7178https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7178,from=rss#post7178Another thing you fail to consider, Loud G: even if your claims of "everything is a choice" are true, then why would people "choose" something that is harmful to them? I'm not talking in terms of morality or society, I mean to the person in question. It's really quite irrational to assume that all homosexual people wake up one day and say to themselves, "I think I'm going to go against my religious views, the hopes and dreams of my parents, and totally disregard social approval, thus setting myself up for taunting, harrassment, self-hate while in school, and discrimination, and start dating people my own gender, just because it looks like the sex would be good." You never once addressed that, and yet you claim that this is all some nasty carnal urge that can be easily supressed. It's not like that. If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Gays know that people hate them for their lifestyles, they know the church frowns upon them. They know that it's likely they've broken their parents' hearts. They know that they will be bombarded with insults and even death threats. Would YOU go through all that, just for something you think is merely fun and you can control?nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Wed, 19 Oct 2005 02:33:51 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7177,from=rss#post7177https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7177,from=rss#post7177First off, of course actions are a choice, even when based on desire. So what? You seem to feel that others "should" be making choices based on what you personally "know in your heart" is wrong. But see, you have made a choice - a choice to believe that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God. You have chosen to marry an individual who (I assume) you love, find attractive, and who believes similarly. I have also made a choice - to believe that all of God's creations are valuable, to believe that free will is one of God's greatest gifts, and to believe that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are human documents written in attempt to quantify that which cannot be quantified, make perceivable that which was never meant to be completely perceived during this phase of our existance, and (in the case of the Christian bible) altered in order to get more followers and political power over the ages. I have chosen to marry an individual whom I love, find attractive, and who believes as I do. You have made your choice; I have made mine. And homosexual people who choose to marry the person they love and are attracted to, regardless of gender, have made their choice. Now, of the above examples, which "choice" is the most valid and why? Which "choice" is the least valid and why? My beliefs are far different from yours with regard to God. I don't believe that Jesus is the savior. Under the Christian faith, that's a damnable offense. Worse even than homosexuality. Why should I be allowed marriage benefits, but not homosexuals? Unlike homosexuals, I will breed and pass my values on to the next generation. It's a slippery slope, when you start talking about "morals" that are based on religion. Incidentally, the animal world is brought in as a response to those who claim that there is no biological basis for homosexuality. You see, if the Political Christian Right (as opposed to true Christians, which is a different thing) officially acknowledges a biological basis for homosexuality, they must then approach it like any other biological deviation from the norm. And the law, based on the Americans with Disabilities Act precedent, would potentially be unable to ban homosexual marriage. That's the political reason why such groups rail against the concept of a biological basis for homosexuality. Not, incidentally, that I feel homosexuality is a disability. I'm just talking about how the law could be used in those circumstances. Having a desire and making a choice not to follow through is a totally different thing. Then you get into why a person should make that choice if they don't believe it's wrong and there's no victim. There is not gay person, or straight person. I'm talking about "gay' or 'straight' being definitions of the whole of the person. It is ridiculous to class people that way. It is something they do. Period. YES for crying out loud they have urges, etc. But the gay part is an action not truly an aspect of their humanity. Well said. I agree that being gay is one part of a person, just as being straight is only one part of a person. However, I will disagree with one thing - who you or I or anyone is attracted to is certainly an aspect of our humanity. I don't understand that part of your statement, and would interested in you expanding on that concept.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Addi)Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:57:19 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7176,from=rss#post7176https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7176,from=rss#post7176oh, I know...I was just curious about that little bit og goth trivia :Dnondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:00:55 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7175,from=rss#post7175https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7175,from=rss#post7175I was referring to the whole "misunderstood" dilemma. You don't feel that you're getting your point across, and the whole stereotypical "goths do this illegal activity" and all that. I was just letting you know, you're not alone.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:46:15 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7174,from=rss#post7174https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7174,from=rss#post7174I know all about psychology. I find it very interesting, and love to study about it. And contrary to what you state, the evidence is very little and highly debated. There are several schisms in psychology itself. We all use it to our advantange, to prove our own point. But that is the trouble. None of it is truly certain. Thank you Ahlyssa, you made me smile with the second half of your post. I do not mean that in a mocking way. I know how futile it is to debate this topic within the legal confines of what little we all know about the human mind. but there is a spiritual side to everything, whether you believe it or not. There is something that separates us from the animals fully and unequivacably. it is not a thumb. It runs deeper. So when people try to bring in the animal world to rationalize human actions, it is just as bad as applying religion directly to government. I do feel bad for the politicians who have to go through this though :) oh dear, goth? :s:: no I don't think goths are evil, don't worry :) actually I just find the whole term kinda funny. I'm a big fan of art and architecture and have never understood where the gothic movement got its roots from, certainly not its name-sake? (sincere question) Gothic architecture is some of my favorite, but I have never seen the connection. I do admit, some of the clothes I've seen some goths wear was quite snazzy, I was kinda jealous. :)nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:08:55 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7173,from=rss#post7173https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7173,from=rss#post7173And how would you reply if we said that WE are right, that we simply know it deep, deep down with every fiber of our beings? Could you prove us wrong? You see, G, we all know we are "right". Every person has this assertion that THEY know what is true for THEM. It's all quite psychological (something I don't think you would take to heart, seeing as how you disregard all psychological evidence concerning homosexuality). False consensus effect, ingroup bias, hindsight bias---you've displayed a great many characteristics held by opinionated, confident people. That's not a bad thing! I myself am quite opinionated (you oughta read some of my essays sometime!), as you can plainly see. And I do love a good debate! But what I'm trying to point out is that there is no way for you to convince us that your views are right, just as there is little chance that we may be able to swing your ideals. We have tried to explain things, as have you, to get you to see our position. But, you're not moving, and neither are we. This is really just a piece of the hell going on in the Senate and House right now. However, to address one of your previous analogies, if you feel like an alien explaining esoteric knowledge to primative natives, then I feel like the Pauper describing to the Prince what it feels like to sleep on the cold, damp ground instead of a featherbed. I mean, have you ever felt the shame of discrimination? I know Mormons get a bad rap every now and then, but have you ever felt that you were not getting the same treatment as everyone else? Can you honestly say that you know what it feels like to be the b**** of the country? Just thought you should consider that before you start dishing out judgement as to who is practicing acceptable behavior, and who is not. And if you still feel misunderstood, just remember that you're talking to a Goth here. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:39:00 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7172,from=rss#post7172https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7172,from=rss#post7172ah, once again I am misunderstood blah There is not gay person, or straight person. I'm talking about "gay' or 'straight' being definitions of the whole of the person. It is ridiculous to class people that way. It is something they do. Period. YES for crying out loud they have urges, etc. But the gay part is an action not truly an aspect of their humanity. Or if it is it shouldn't be, any more than being 'white' is truly an aspect of my humanity. That is what I'm saying. This is a more complex issue that to blindly break people into categories of gay or straight. No matter what physiological drives there are there is an instant of choice. Everyone CHOOSES what they do every moment of the day. They may act on urges, but the action stems from a choice. That is what I mean by choice. I don't care if you find rocks attractive, if you go and try to have sex with a rock, that is your choice! Stop trying to free everyone of the responsibility of choice. It is running rampant nowadays. Here lets find another thing where we can clear the conscience of somebody by relieving them of total responsibility for action. Things don't work that way. As for the puplic thing. Yes, they should be free to do whatever everyone else is free to do in public. I am not against the protected rights of all citizenry (no matter how much I disagree with the 'right'). (Ahlyssa, I believe I know as well as one can know without having gone down that particular road. ) It may sound arrogant, it may sound narrowminded, but you will see. I promise you. If it is one thing I know, is, it will be the downfall of the US. Not gays specifically, but the loosening of morals generally. I am very frustrated right now, because it is extremely difficult to explain these things to you all. It is very difficult when I come from an entirely different world than the rest of you. To most of you this is a non issue because you don't understand all the implications of it. And even if I tried to explain it, I don't think it would make sense to anyone. But I know with all my heart, soul, body, mind that it is true. I've seen that silly penguin thing before. Didn't convince me. I wish people would stop looking for excuses. That is all I have ever seen in these 'gay' debates. A bunch of sad excuses that people claim are precedents etc but are just there to help people not feel bad. You don't have to have a precedent you know. There is no precedent for banning gay marriage, and because of that it probably won't be, until sociologists and psychologists discover how bad it is for society. the same thing happened with cigarrettes. God told man not to smoke, as it was bad for the body, way back in the 1800s, yet science did not discover it was bad until fairly recently. I predict the same will happen with this issue. Again I'm not advocating a ban on it through legislation or anything of that ilk, you can all calm down. I'm just advocating (and always will) that people STOP of their own free will. I have that right at least.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Loud G)Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:25:43 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7171,from=rss#post7171https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7171,from=rss#post7171Well said, Addi. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Sat, 15 Oct 2005 03:03:39 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7170,from=rss#post7170https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7170,from=rss#post7170Loud G wrote: Addi, The govt has curtailed religious rights in the past. It can happen again. Not saying it will. Just saying it is a possibility. Both for state and federal govts. I wouldn't say it's a possibility, I'd say it's a definite. They're doing it now. As for my numbers.....I estimated from stats I'd seen a while back, and I may have been a little conservative in my estimate :P except for the gay population number. I have read several articles from separate sources. The pro gay sources tend to over estimate at a full 10%, the liberal sources say 2% the concervatives say 0.5% but most of the "non-biased" stats I found placed it at about 1% Sorry, but I have to disagree with that. Unless you consider the CDC a biased source, the latest study says just over 2 percent of the male population considers themselves gay, and more that that have had same-sex experiences in their lifetime. Same-sex activity Three percent of males 15-44 years of age have had oral or anal sex with another male in the last 12 months (1.8 million). Four percent of females had a sexual experience with another female in the last 12 months (tables A and B). The proportion who had same-sex contact in their lifetimes was 6 percent for males and (using a different question) 11 percent for females (figure 5). About 1 percent of men and 3 percent of women 15-44 years of age have had both male and female sexual partners in the last 12 months (table B). Sexual orientation In response to a question that asked, “Do you think of yourself as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or something else?” 90 percent of men 18-44 years of age responded that they think of themselves as heterosexual, 2.3 percent of men answered homosexual, 1.8 percent bisexual, 3.9 percent “something else,” and 1.8 percent did not answer the question (figure 8). Percents for women were similar. These findings are similar to data collected in 1992 by Laumann et al. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/ad/361-370/ad362.htm But I will repeat. In your house, bedroom, etc you can do whatever you want and if the govt steps in, then it that is wrong. But if you bring it out into public, then you make it everyone elses business. Perhaps I should start hiding that I'm Jewish, as there are those who believe that jews are Christ-killers and therefore find it offenseive. After all, I can easily pass for Christian and hide my Jewishness away in the privacy of my own home. And while we're at it, perhaps you should do that with your Mormanism. If anyone, gay or straight, has sex in public, you have a valid complaint. Otherwise, anything straight couples can do in public, gay couples can do in public. Anything else is, by definition, unequal treatment. This isn't about morality. This is about a system of government that says I will protect the rights of those I disagree and they, in turn, will ensure my rights even when they disagree with me. You start messing with that and everyone loses. I realize that's easy for me to say as I have no moral issues with homosexuality; however, I would grit my teeth and defend the right of the KKK to be heard as well (and have). I'm sounding a bit like a broken record I realize, but this is a big issue to me. People are not 'gay' that is just something they do. So why is there homosexuality in the animal community? Including the gay penguins that just adopted a child that was deserted by it's natural parents and are raising it in precisely the same manner as "straight" penguin couples? Sorry, but you're stating something as fact that is your opinion and that goes against what empirical data has indicated. And honestly, most homosexuals say that it is not a choice - that it is something they're born with. I frankly think they would know better than you or I. Meanwhile, at what point did you have to be "taught" to find women attractive? At what point did you sit down and "choose" to want to sleep with women versus men? Have you ever personally felt any temptation to have sex with men? And if not - then what has made you conclude that sexual attraction is a choice? It is strange to see everyone trying to force this as an ethnicity, as if gay activity amounted to a separate race or culture. Not as an ethnicity. As a minority group. Do you feel that homosexuals are somehow not a minority group? Its like trying to make a sub-culture out of authors and then trying to gain legal powers. If the majority of people decided to deny marriage benefits to anyone who married an author, having decided, say, that writing was immoral because people should only read God's words - then authors would qualify as a minority group as well. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Addi)Sat, 15 Oct 2005 02:58:16 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7169,from=rss#post7169https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7169,from=rss#post7169Loud G adultery, fornication and gay sex are all equal to me. "Adultery, Fornication and Gay Sex"? You do realise just how bizarre that equation is, don't you? V nondisclosed_email@example.com (voltaire)Sat, 15 Oct 2005 02:28:45 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7168,from=rss#post7168https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7168,from=rss#post7168There are some fellows who never get to be "men", and they don't live their lives the way that you do... There are some fellows who never get to be "men", they might as well be your own kids... Think about this one, people... It's translated verses of a well known Greek song about gays, back in the early 70's!!!...nondisclosed_email@example.com (Alpha Centauri)Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:14:21 +0000 Re: Quotes from the America Talibanhttps://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7167,from=rss#post7167https://bfarfrontiers.runboard.com/p7167,from=rss#post7167You do not seem to know overmuch about how homosexuals feel, do you? Then again I guess it would be hard for you, being a perfectly straight man, to see things from the other side. However, that does seem to be narrowing your view past the point of being able to see the science behind it all. There is valid proof that homosexuality is a matter of brain chemistry, and not something that anyone has any control over. I do not know why you cannot let go of your personal feelings just for a moment, long enough to see that it's not what you think it is (and if you plan on trying to throw that back at me and say that I'm too narrow-minded, let me remind you that I used to feel the same way as you). As for the next generation having similar views to me, well I certainly hope they won't have the views of so many of elder generations. Oh, you know, those silly little ideas that black people are only good for manual labor, that women are too stupid to vote, and oh yes, lynching! And my views are not just mine; nobody comes up with their views on their own. You get yours from your religion, family, past teachers, friends, role models, et cetera. I get mine from my spiritual path, my teachers (NOT my family), Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., personal friends, and so on and so forth. As for their not being a culture, would you say that the Deaf Community is not a culture either? And if you do, are you prepared to get your rear kicked? Just kidding, but a lot of "different" people feel that they fit in together as a group, and it gives them power. Bad way of saying it, but I'm in a hurry here.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Ahlyssah)Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:40:21 +0000