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Andy Hulatt Profile
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people taken to court in uk for downloading music


people taken to court in uk for downloading music

most of them recieved a £4000 fine
most settled before court preceeding were undertaken!

where will this lead?

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8/Mar/05, 20:04 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


If you don't like it - move to Serbia. Sure, it's not the richest country in the world, but at least all the software's free. I have over 50 gigs of music, hundreds of movies, lots of programmes, games, etc, yet I didn't pay a single penny for any of that. emoticon

God, I wonder how pissed off people get when their legal Windows crashes. Must be awful. I feel genuinely sorry for everyone that ever gave that Gates bastard any money.

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David Meadows Profile
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



wilhelmrheiner wrote:
God, I wonder how pissed off people get when their legal Windows crashes. Must be awful. I feel genuinely sorry for everyone that ever gave that Gates bastard any money.


I wonder that, too. Luckily, my Windows 2000 is very stable and never crashes emoticon



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"What is now proved was once only imagined" -- William Blake
9/Mar/05, 12:53 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


.




Last edited by:
David Meadows, 9/Mar/05, 12:58


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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


Yes, 2k is indeed stable, at least untill you decide to crash it deliberately. However, 2k is NOT gamer-friendly. Half the games don't work properly with 2k, especially the new directx9 games. Win 98 is very buggy, and XP is one big bug. Linux is even worse. I've tried working on 5 different versions of Linux, but they were all crap. I even tried building my own Linux, but gave it up after about a month. That's too much work. Still, I've never seen a virus for Linux, and it IS the hardest one to crash. Lindows didn't impress me, as anticipated. I'm waiting for the 64-bit Windows now, wondering how it'll work with my ath64 processor.

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David Meadows Profile
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


To get back to the original subject:


Andy Hulatt wrote:

people taken to court in uk for downloading music

most of them recieved a £4000 fine



Great!


where will this lead?



Hopefully to a lot less theft.



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"What is now proved was once only imagined" -- William Blake
11/Mar/05, 13:37 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



wilhelmrheiner wrote:

 Win 98 is very buggy, and XP is one big bug. .




If that's your opinion of WinXP, then you should try Win Me
 emoticon
I had it for a year , am still surprised Norton Antivirus didn't have it deleted right out... emoticon


Last edited by:
gkapitso, 12/Mar/05, 10:25


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Once there was The People--Terror gave it birth;
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



gkapitso wrote:

If that's your opinion of WinXP, then you should try Win Me
 emoticon
I had for a year , am still surprised Norton Antivirus didn't have it deleted right out... emoticon



Unfortunately, I did. Win98SE and Win Me are the worst. I deleted Win Me the day I installed it, and Se sticked around for a couple of days.

Kaspersky would have deleted it for sure. emoticon

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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


Win XP, however, is more stable than Me...I
ve been using it now for about a year, and apart from the occasional quirk, it's holding up nicely.

---
Once there was The People--Terror gave it birth;
Once there was The People and it made a Hell of Earth
Earth arose and crushed it. Listen, 0 ye slain!
Once there was The People--it shall never be again!
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


Win Me is as stable as London bridge while falling down. I have two computers now, and I'm using XP on one and Win98 on the other. The only reason for using XP is that Win98 doesn't support SATA/RAID hard drives. XP is always complaining about something ( illegal operation, sorry for inconvenience; signature error, sorry for inconvenience, etc ), it won't let me copy one entire CD onto another, and stuff like that. There are some good things about XP as well, like unicode/utf8 for txt files, Serbian cyrillic interface ( me likes that ), and automatic recognition of a bluetooth device. Other than that, I prefer Win98. It doesn't complain, doesn't ask stupid questions, and lets me do whatever I want ( temper with regedit and mscofig on a regular basis ).

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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



wilhelmrheiner wrote:

It doesn't complain, doesn't ask stupid questions, and lets me do whatever I want .



Sounds like my ex-girlfriend..... too bad good things never last

 emoticon

---
Once there was The People--Terror gave it birth;
Once there was The People and it made a Hell of Earth
Earth arose and crushed it. Listen, 0 ye slain!
Once there was The People--it shall never be again!
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



wilhelmrheiner wrote:
 Still, I've never seen a virus for Linux, and it IS the hardest one to crash.



Then you haven´t looked carefully enough. Worms that attack Linux do exist. It´s not many years ago, that alot of web/mail servers died on *nix platforms worldwide.

You can even get attacked by Windows virus, when using Wine or such.
27/Mar/05, 13:55 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Then you haven´t looked carefully enough. Worms that attack Linux do exist. It´s not many years ago, that alot of web/mail servers died on *nix platforms worldwide.

You can even get attacked by Windows virus, when using Wine or such.



I never said they don't exist, I just haven't seen any. I know that the older versions of Unix are crashable, I even have a book on how to do it. However, what it takes to build a virus for Linux is an experienced Linux builder/user, and those love their Linux too much. The only people with any reason to make such viri are Microsoft programmers.

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27/Mar/05, 23:39 Link to this post Email   PM  MSN  Yahoo 
 
Generalley Cool Profile
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


XD we ha an ME computer, we ended up having a special keyboard made for it, it just had 3 keys, control, alt and delete.
i dont see what the fuss is about downloading music. i have a few of my own tracks up on kazzar for anyone who wants them. i got copywrites and all on them incase, so theyre safe, if i hear it on the radio i can PROVE i made it. plus its got my name hidden in it, and you cant get rid of it XD


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http://www.geocities.com/generalley

28/Mar/05, 2:51 Link to this post PM  ICQ  MSN  Blog
 
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


then again i dont realy download music, unless i already have it on CD, or had it and lost it, cos then ive payed for it :D

---



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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



wilhelmrheiner wrote:


Then you haven´t looked carefully enough. Worms that attack Linux do exist. It´s not many years ago, that alot of web/mail servers died on *nix platforms worldwide.

You can even get attacked by Windows virus, when using Wine or such.



I never said they don't exist, I just haven't seen any. I know that the older versions of Unix are crashable, I even have a book on how to do it. However, what it takes to build a virus for Linux is an experienced Linux builder/user, and those love their Linux too much. The only people with any reason to make such viri are Microsoft programmers.



If the same people who´s getting infected today would run Linux, I believe more than 50% would root around, thus compromising the integrity of their system. The main problem with viri (IMHO) is the users, not the OS. And there would be more prestige for the programmer, to successfully attack a *nix, than there are today. And they will succeed because there will be an increase in insecure *nix systems.

When I first learned Unix (Sinix, a Siemens Unix), we just had to edit 1 line in our .profile and login again, then we were logged in with root access.

Whether or not Linux is more stable, depends on so many factors. If we are talking kernel alone, it probably is, if you remember to keep it updated. But what does it help to have a stable kernel, if the rest of the distribution is buggy/unstable? (only talking about standalone desktops)
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Everything you wrote is right, but:
Linux is an OS for people who know what they're doing. If you screw up kernel code before you compile it, your Linux will suck. Most computer users don't even know what C++ is, they only want to play games ang go to the internet. Those should stay the hell away from Unix/Linux.
Most distributions are indeed buggy and unstable, but it's all fixable. If you don't want to have to do all the work manually, SUSE distributions are the best. I found RedHat distributions the worst, although some may not agree.
There's one more thing to consider ( if you don't live in Russia, Bulgaria or Serbia ) : Linux is FREE! You can download the source code from the internet and compile it the way it suits you. All the software for Linux is also FREE. Windows, however, is VERY EXPENSIVE, and the software even more so.

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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



wilhelmrheiner wrote:

Everything you wrote is right, but:
Linux is an OS for people who know what they're doing.

Haven´t Gates been giving the users the blame for Windows shortcomings?


 If you screw up kernel code before you compile it, your Linux will suck.
 Most computer users don't even know what C++ is,

One doesn´t have to mess around in code, and if one has to know about C++ to be able to use the OS, there´s something fundamentally wrong.


they only want to play games ang go to the internet.

Very true, and then the vendors has to provide that possibility in as secure and stable way. Neither does, but I bet MS is ahead (esp. on the gaming front)

Those should stay the hell away from Unix/Linux.

100% agreed


Most distributions are indeed buggy and unstable, but it's all fixable.

Only if you know what you are doing, and can live without a graphical interface

If you don't want to have to do all the work manually, SUSE distributions are the best.

But not freeemoticon

I found RedHat distributions the worst, although some may not agree.

I ran RedHat for years. I loved their errata and other emailed motices. I ended up in broken depencies hell so many times. I then switched to Debian. Pretty good. Still alot of things one need to know, but apt is cool. Now running Debian (testing) on one PC and Debian (stable) on another. Both dual boot with WinME and WinXP.


There's one more thing to consider ( if you don't live in Russia, Bulgaria or Serbia ) : Linux is FREE! You can download the source code from the internet and compile it the way it suits you. All the software for Linux is also FREE. Windows, however, is VERY EXPENSIVE, and the software even more so.


Here I really have to put in a veto! Neither Mandrake nor Suse is free (though considerable cheaper than Win), and Redhat´s going comercial as well. There exist several comercial software packages for Linux which is not free. StarOffice, CrossOver Office and a multiple of games just to name a few.
Ofcourse you can achieve your goal of having a fully licensed _free_ system, but then you also have to compromise and know what you are doing. You have to go through all the dependency hell, and figure out if it´s package1.01.203.117-2-op-345-ns-23 or package1.01.203.117-2-op-345-ns-24 that will work with whatever software you´re trying to install. It´s mostly all solveable though.

All this said, I am very happy for my Linux. If I want my Windows do the same fully licenced outside the Open Source community, I´d end lose a forune.
30/Mar/05, 23:44 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music



MrSnip wrote:
One doesn´t have to mess around in code, and if one has to know about C++ to be able to use the OS, there´s something fundamentally wrong.



Perhaps, but we may be looking at this from different angles. In my country the C programming language is a school subject, so C++ shouldn't be much of a problem for most people here.


MrSnip wrote:
I ran RedHat for years. I loved their errata and other emailed motices. I ended up in broken depencies hell so many times. I then switched to Debian. Pretty good. Still alot of things one need to know, but apt is cool. Now running Debian (testing) on one PC and Debian (stable) on another. Both dual boot with WinME and WinXP.



Some RedHat distributions look good, but are actually crap. I've especially been having trouble with RedHat 8 back in 2002. That was one of the reasons I switched back to Win. I haven't been working with Debian, but I heard it was way better than RedHat.


MrSnip wrote:
Here I really have to put in a veto! Neither Mandrake nor Suse is free (though considerable cheaper than Win), and Redhat´s going comercial as well. There exist several comercial software packages for Linux which is not free. StarOffice, CrossOver Office and a multiple of games just to name a few.
Ofcourse you can achieve your goal of having a fully licensed _free_ system, but then you also have to compromise and know what you are doing. You have to go through all the dependency hell, and figure out if it´s package1.01.203.117-2-op-345-ns-23 or package1.01.203.117-2-op-345-ns-24 that will work with whatever software you´re trying to install. It´s mostly all solveable though.

All this said, I am very happy for my Linux. If I want my Windows do the same fully licenced outside the Open Source community, I´d end lose a forune.



Sorry, I thought they were free, my mistake. emoticon
I got them for free, and just asumed they were free. But then again, all software is free here, so... actually that was another reason for me to switch back to Win. Win is convenient, Win software is widely available, and even a mountain gorilla can use Win. Linux, on the other hand, is not really what we can call "user friendly". Linux software is harder to come by, and most people around me were using Windows. However, I love testing new operating systems, even though some of them turn out to be crap.
OpenOffice is quite sufficient for my needs, and most Linux users find it OK. Why would they buy software slightly better than the one they can have for free? All the serious gaming I've ever seen on Linux was Quake and Starcraft ( by serious I mean those games that are not cell phone level ).
Anyway, I agree with almost everything you wrote. Windows software is so expensive that I should have paid like 20K$ for all the software I have on my computer. That's a robbery!


Last edited by:
wilhelmrheiner, 31/Mar/05, 23:08


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mrsnip Profile
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


It seems we agree on most issues


wilhelmrheiner wrote:


MrSnip wrote:
One doesn´t have to mess around in code, and if one has to know about C++ to be able to use the OS, there´s something fundamentally wrong.


wilhelmrheiner wrote:
Perhaps, but we may be looking at this from different angles. In my country the C programming language is a school subject, so C++ shouldn't be much of a problem for most people here.




MrSnip wrote:
I do believe it takes a bit more than basic programming skills, to modify a full featured OS, even though you have the source code, it´s a huge task just to find the file you need to edit. Besides that, you have to understand, how an OS like *nix is working. Again, not a simple task. But yes, it is one of the strengths of *nix.


MrSnip wrote:
I ran RedHat for years. I loved their errata and other emailed motices. I ended up in broken depencies hell so many times. I then switched to Debian. Pretty good. Still alot of things one need to know, but apt is cool. Now running Debian (testing) on one PC and Debian (stable) on another. Both dual boot with WinME and WinXP.

wilhelmrheiner wrote:
Some RedHat distributions look good, but are actually crap. I've especially been having trouble with RedHat 8 back in 2002. That was one of the reasons I switched back to Win. I haven't been working with Debian, but I heard it was way better than RedHat.



MrSnip wrote:

RedHat went the Windows way. Made everything happen automatically. It was a nightmare. Just their automount. I put in a cd-rw I want to erase, and RedHat mounted it automatically. Cool, some would say, but I hated it, because I can´t erase an already mounted disc. When I then unmounted the disc, RedHat ejected it, so I still couldn´t erase it!, and if I closed the tray, the automounter mounted the disc again. And automatically started Konqueror as well, to browse said cd. And that is equally annoying, since I am very well able to do a "ls -la" from the console. I am running Linux because I want control, not because I want to spent a month to remove "features" from the installation.

After I switched to Debian I never looked back. Didn´t even keep the old discs of RH (First version I installed was 4.2). But Debian is a bit tougher for the newbie (actually it´s not recommended to the newbie, on any of the mailing lists I´ve followed)

Slackware is another very stable distribution. It doesn´t come with a lot of crap (1 disc), and is _very_ basic. But that is a good thing. You download, configure, compile and test a program. When it´s all ready, you install it, and you can go on to the next. Simple, structured and not messy, now that is what I want. I don´t want 500 programs to be installed at the same time, with standard settings, compiled for a 386 processor, just so I can wonder, what is that?

I also have Knoppix. Booting and running from CD-ROM. It´s encridible powerfull in it´s hardware detection (which is why I have it), and it comes with OpenOffice, and a few other usefull programs.


MrSnip wrote:
Here I really have to put in a veto! Neither Mandrake nor Suse is free (though considerable cheaper than Win), and Redhat´s going comercial as well. There exist several comercial software packages for Linux which is not free. StarOffice, CrossOver Office and a multiple of games just to name a few.
Ofcourse you can achieve your goal of having a fully licensed _free_ system, but then you also have to compromise and know what you are doing. You have to go through all the dependency hell, and figure out if it´s package1.01.203.117-2-op-345-ns-23 or package1.01.203.117-2-op-345-ns-24 that will work with whatever software you´re trying to install. It´s mostly all solveable though.

All this said, I am very happy for my Linux. If I want my Windows do the same fully licenced outside the Open Source community, I´d end lose a forune.

wilhelmrheiner wrote:
Sorry, I thought they were free, my mistake. emoticon
I got them for free, and just asumed they were free. But then again, all software is free here, so... actually that was another reason for me to switch back to Win. Win is convenient, Win software is widely available, and even a mountain gorilla can use Win. Linux, on the other hand, is not really what we can call "user friendly". Linux software is harder to come by, and most people around me were using Windows. However, I love testing new operating systems, even though some of them turn out to be crap.
OpenOffice is quite sufficient for my needs, and most Linux users find it OK. Why would they buy software slightly better than the one they can have for free? All the serious gaming I've ever seen on Linux was Quake and Starcraft ( by serious I mean those games that are not cell phone level ).
Anyway, I agree with almost everything you wrote. Windows software is so expensive that I should have paid like 20K$ for all the software I have on my computer. That's a robbery!



MrSnip wrote:

For Mandrake, you just have to join the MandrakeClub (I believe) then you can get the newest version for free. I can´t remember the deal with Suse.

It´s not the everyday user who wants to pay for StarOffice, and then I agree that OpenOffice is just as good.

As far as I am aware, it´s a question of how much you need. If you only need the software for playing with it you go with the free versions. However if you need support (many businesses _need_ vendor support), you´d better stick with the commercial releases. RedHats commercial release is actually their free release bundled with support and printed manuals, except there isn´t any testing status software in the.commercial release, as is in the free.

As for software availability cross platform, yes there are much more Windows software than Linux software, or rather it´s easier to find (and usually much easier to use), but freeware is almost non existant. I guess every highschool student has put out a piece of crappy and buggy shareware, in the hope of becomming a millionaire overnight.
And if that is your dream, to earn quick bucks, you´d better stay away from OpenSource, unless you _really_ know what you are doing, and start a company, delivering (and supporting) complete systems.
And with image manipulation or WYSIWYG web editors, you are almost forced to use Windows.

And all this said, much of it in favour of Windows, we have to think about any company using computers, regardless if it´s Win or *nix, they´ll need support. If they are not big enough to have their own competent IT department, they have to find someone with knowledge of *nix). If they buy (let´s say) RedHat Enterprice (commercial release), they still have a lot of money left after initial software/hardware purchase to buy a lot of external support, but can they find someone competent to help them _now_?.
Furthermore I can easely imagine the internal problems, when the staff has to switch from MS-Office to OpenOffice, or StarOffice, or K-Office or whatever. That will cost a lot of money in education. That education the company usually get for free today (everyother staff member has MS-Office at home, licensed or not).

All this brings me to one conclusion:
Linux is a powerfull _server_ OS, which requires a competent and skilled admin, to run smoothly. The average user won´t get past the installation procedure, without reading _books_ about it, and still many won´t advance any further.

It´s economically insane for a small business to invest in a Linux-server, unless they already have a _competent_ sysop. They won´t get the support they need _when_ they need it. Every highschool kid can be a Windows Wizzard for those small businesses, but he´ll look confused at the Linux prompt, not knowing what to do when X refuses to start after an update.
But if you already have a competent IT department, there´s absolutely no reason, not to run both Linux and Windows, thus getting the advantages of both OS´s.
31/Mar/05, 11:37 Link to this post Email   PM 
 
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Re: people taken to court in uk for downloading music


Wisely spoken, Mr Snip.

It would indeed be very stupid for a small business to use Linux instead of Win.

Knoppix is great because it boots from a CD, but I disagree with you on the hardware recognition issue. It didn't recognise my grafic card correctly, and when I set it to "generic" it switched to 800x600 and a Chernobyl-like refresh rate. emoticon

Other than that, I agree with you completely.

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wilhelmrheiner wrote:

Wisely spoken, Mr Snip.

And the same to you wilhelmrheiner. Always nice when one can look beyond the ideology. Unfortunately there are too many Linux advocates. I too used to be one of them, but I´ve grown wiser.



It would indeed be very stupid for a small business to use Linux instead of Win.

Knoppix is great because it boots from a CD, but I disagree with you on the hardware recognition issue. It didn't recognise my grafic card correctly, and when I set it to "generic" it switched to 800x600 and a Chernobyl-like refresh rate. emoticon



Ahh, but that´s shortcomings of the driver that your X-windows provides. I have also had many problems there. If the version of X-windows in your Knoppix do not have the correct driver (maybe a Knoppix out of date version?), then Knoppix can´t do anything.
I´ve used Knoppix to help me find drivers, when I couldn´t come anyfurther. But of course, as always in the OpenSource community, you can´t expect the newst hardware to be working correctly on your box, and maybe it never will, unless you´re a skilled driver-programmer, with cash enough to buy the specs from the vendor, or break the copyright rules (back engineering or something like that it´s called, but I don´t know the exact term in English).

And do remember, generic means generic. 800x600 is standard for generic, because most graphic cards can do that, never mind the memory allocated.
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MrSnip wrote:
Ahh, but that´s shortcomings of the driver that your X-windows provides. I have also had many problems there. If the version of X-windows in your Knoppix do not have the correct driver (maybe a Knoppix out of date version?), then Knoppix can´t do anything.
I´ve used Knoppix to help me find drivers, when I couldn´t come anyfurther. But of course, as always in the OpenSource community, you can´t expect the newst hardware to be working correctly on your box, and maybe it never will, unless you´re a skilled driver-programmer, with cash enough to buy the specs from the vendor, or break the copyright rules (back engineering or something like that it´s called, but I don´t know the exact term in English).

And do remember, generic means generic. 800x600 is standard for generic, because most graphic cards can do that, never mind the memory allocated.



What I meant by "generic" was "generic Radeon". The Knoppix isn't out of date, it just doesn't recognise my Radeon9550. I eventually managed to set it up manually ( I edited Radeon9600 settings ).

What really pisses me off is that no hardware comes with *nix drivers, just the ones for Windows. I then have to spend countless hours setting everything up myself. I still can't make the TV card work under Linux. emoticon

No worries about the correct English term, I know what you meant. And, you could have used a German term as well. emoticon

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wilhelmrheiner wrote:


MrSnip wrote:
Ahh, but that´s shortcomings of the driver that your X-windows provides. I have also had many problems there. If the version of X-windows in your Knoppix do not have the correct driver (maybe a Knoppix out of date version?), then Knoppix can´t do anything.
I´ve used Knoppix to help me find drivers, when I couldn´t come anyfurther. But of course, as always in the OpenSource community, you can´t expect the newst hardware to be working correctly on your box, and maybe it never will, unless you´re a skilled driver-programmer, with cash enough to buy the specs from the vendor, or break the copyright rules (back engineering or something like that it´s called, but I don´t know the exact term in English).

And do remember, generic means generic. 800x600 is standard for generic, because most graphic cards can do that, never mind the memory allocated.



What I meant by "generic" was "generic Radeon". The Knoppix isn't out of date, it just doesn't recognise my Radeon9550. I eventually managed to set it up manually ( I edited Radeon9600 settings ).

Ah, the old try and retry gameemoticon
Graphic adapters can be a nightmare to get running under Linux, if it ever will. I can´t use NVIDIA cards, since the driver won´t run _stable_ on my system. It´s a specific problem on my machine, since many reports on success exist. And then again, graphics are not really a Linux problem, but a X-Windows problem.


What really pisses me off is that no hardware comes with *nix drivers, just the ones for Windows. I then have to spend countless hours setting everything up myself. I still can't make the TV card work under Linux. emoticon



Yep, that is really annoying. I have a wireless lan, that won´t run wireless under Linux. One of these things the ISP buy´s, put in another caging (with their own name), and sell overpriced to their customers, bundled with a lot of useless software. But I have bought NIC´s which came with *nix drivers, but there I never needed the drivers, since they were already included in the distribution.
What I normally do now, before buying essential hardware, is google and read mailinglist archives, to see if there´s reported any success in getting it working properly.
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MrSnip wrote:
Ah, the old try and retry gameemoticon
Graphic adapters can be a nightmare to get running under Linux, if it ever will. I can´t use NVIDIA cards, since the driver won´t run _stable_ on my system. It´s a specific problem on my machine, since many reports on success exist. And then again, graphics are not really a Linux problem, but a X-Windows problem.



All NVIDIA cards ran just fine under Linux on my computer ( Riva TNT1, RIVA TNT2, Ge-force2 ), but ATI cards are a pain it the ass for me. Voodoo2 ran perfectly under RedHat, but didn't run at all in graphic mode with other distributions. But, again I agree with you, this is really an X-Windows problem.


MrSnip wrote:
What I normally do now, before buying essential hardware, is google and read mailinglist archives, to see if there´s reported any success in getting it working properly.



I used to do that too, but it takes too much time. Nowadays, I rarely use Linux at all ( Knoppix ). I'm afraid I've become a Win-everything-done-for-you conformist. emoticon

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MrSnip wrote:
MrSnip wrote:
I do believe it takes a bit more than basic programming skills, to modify a full featured OS, even though you have the source code, it´s a huge task just to find the file you need to edit. Besides that, you have to understand, how an OS like *nix is working. Again, not a simple task. But yes, it is one of the strengths of *nix.


I've been programming in C++ for a couple of years, C for over 15 years, and using Unix for even longer than that... and there is no way I would even think about hacking a Linux kernel. There is programming and then there is programming... emoticon


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MrSnip wrote:
All this brings me to one conclusion:
Linux is a powerfull _server_ OS, which requires a competent and skilled admin, to run smoothly. The average user won´t get past the installation procedure, without reading _books_ about it, and still many won´t advance any further.



This is a point everybody seems to miss about Linux: it's a server. Why the heck would you want it on your desk? Has the whole world forgotten about thin client computing (which Unix was invented for)? It's a wonderful concept, and as a server OS serving thin-client terminals, Linux can't be beaten. And then it's perfect for clueless end users, much better than Windows, at least for every corporate client I've ever worked with.

And then when people say how Linux needs more technical knowledge than Windows, they are not comparing like-for-like. Put an out-of-the-box Windows server OS on a user's desk and "The average user won´t get past the installation procedure, without reading _books_ about it, and still many won´t advance any further."




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David Meadows wrote:


MrSnip wrote:
MrSnip wrote:
I do believe it takes a bit more than basic programming skills, to modify a full featured OS, even though you have the source code, it´s a huge task just to find the file you need to edit. Besides that, you have to understand, how an OS like *nix is working. Again, not a simple task. But yes, it is one of the strengths of *nix.


I've been programming in C++ for a couple of years, C for over 15 years, and using Unix for even longer than that... and there is no way I would even think about hacking a Linux kernel. There is programming and then there is programming... emoticon



It isn´t impossible. And it´s not _only_ the kernel that one might want to hack, and that some do hack. But I agree, I wouldn´t even bother to look at the source code of the kernel, though I do compile my own custom kernel, I am not hacking it.
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David Meadows wrote:


MrSnip wrote:
All this brings me to one conclusion:
Linux is a powerfull _server_ OS, which requires a competent and skilled admin, to run smoothly. The average user won´t get past the installation procedure, without reading _books_ about it, and still many won´t advance any further.



This is a point everybody seems to miss about Linux: it's a server. Why the heck would you want it on your desk? Has the whole world forgotten about thin client computing (which Unix was invented for)? It's a wonderful concept, and as a server OS serving thin-client terminals, Linux can't be beaten. And then it's perfect for clueless end users, much better than Windows, at least for every corporate client I've ever worked with.

And then when people say how Linux needs more technical knowledge than Windows, they are not comparing like-for-like. Put an out-of-the-box Windows server OS on a user's desk and "The average user won´t get past the installation procedure, without reading _books_ about it, and still many won´t advance any further."




Linux is also a desktop OS! Depends on the distribution you choose to run. Of course it´s the same kernel, but you as user choose what to install and run, just as with Windows. If I wanted to I could run an Linux, only using 45MB discspace. (ok not much worth, but still)
I am not familiar with the thin client expression, but I think it means a program server, serving dumb terminals. You have the main chunk of the programs installed on a main server.

Another place Linux is powerfull, is as server on _old_ hardware. I can run a fileserver, webserver and ftp-server on a 386 with 64 MB ram. Of course it can´t handle 1,000,000 hits an hour, and there won´t be a graphical interface, but hey it´s a server not a desktop. Very usefull for the home network! and other places where you don´t want to buy too much server power, for running an intranet.

I don´t think Linux takes much more technical knowledge to run proper than Windows does, in both systems you need to know the fundamentals. I have not enough money to buy a Windows Server version, just to play around with, so I can´t say how that is to install. I can only compare with WinXP (home), Me,98 and 95, and they are a piece of cake compared with Slackware or Debian netinstall. And it´s practically only the lack of proper hardware recognition in Linux, that makes me think it can be a pain to get running smoothfully.
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If this is turning into a Windows vs. Linux thread, why don't we add the KDE vs. Gnome dicussion?

Seriously, though, Linux is a great OS, and it'll only get better.

Linux only developed because computer users were fed up with paying ridiculous amounts of money for their OSs and software. Microsoft is very cheeky and should be taught a lesson. emoticon

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